John Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 As far as my mom goes I have to tell her that I don't believe in god because I am agreeing with her by not only by my silence but when I go to church whenever I go home. The hardest part about this is it's not just my parents but my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, brother, sister, and the priest that know about it. I don't think a simple "I don't agree with you" will go very well but it is all I can say since reason wont work. Before I graduated High School I told her that my goal in life was to be happy and she told me that it does always work that way (this was before I even knew about objectivism). Since then I explained to her why sacrafice to others is not needed to be happy and she said that god wants us to make sacrafices. For now I tell her that I'm trying to find the truth in it. Since she believes god is the truth she understands and it has worked so far. Is it right to lie to my family and go to church with them because I don't want them to hate me? I don't go home very much and go to church even less..... I've just realized I go for the worst reason: because I don't want to hurt their feelings. I can't allow their feelings to make decisions for me and I have to tell them that too. Actually thats probably the only thing they will understand since you are supposted to accept god on your own without being forced. I'm going to go think about this more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Let me begin by saying that I know exactly what you're going through. My family is very religious, and that religion was instilled in me from as far back as I can remember. And I actually believed it (sort of) for a period of several years. I disagreed with a lot of things that church leaders would teach, but I didn't think that was necessarily a problem because those things generally weren't official church doctrine and were only those persons' opinions. It was only when I got heavily involved in the religion that I realized that all the things I disagreed with really were a part of the religion, implicit in it even though not officially part of it. When I did realize how contradictory the religion was, after a few more weeks of serious study and thought, I openly abandoned religion. Needless to say, my parents were not happy. In addition, I got anonymous hate mail from my community (some of it containing thinly-veiled death threats). All that said, here's my advice to you: Honesty is the best policy. In any context in which people are freely dealing with one another (in other words, as long as there's no element of force involved), dishonesty is self-defeating. What you're doing by hiding your disagreement from your parents is accepting an unearned guilt. If you know you are right, why should you have to pretend to be somebody you're not just to get others' approval? Yes, you do owe your mother more deference than you would anyone else with whom your relationship was not entirely by your own rational choice (seeing as how she gave you life and all), but that deference can only extend so far. It should not extend to pretending to be someone you aren't. She will find out eventually anyway; you can't hide it forever. Are there some tensions now between my parents and I since I have told them that I'm an atheist? Sure. But if I had let it remain a secret, the tension would have been entirely mine to bear, and that's not right. Since we're being honest with each other, it's only a problem insofar as they choose to let it be a problem, and only for them. It's your parents' problem if they can't accept your beliefs, and you should not let it be yours. Hope that helps. Just out of curiosity, what religion is your family? [edit] Oh, and as far as all those other people (grandparents, siblings, former church leaders, etc.) go, you owe them nothing. Why on earth should you care what they think (particularly if you are sure of your own convictions)? Those people's opinions on the subject don't matter. [/edit] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted June 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 You are right. I shouldn't feel guilty for not having faith and I shouldn't allow my parents to feel safe because of a lie. My family is Catholic. As far as the other people go I do not depend on them and I don't care about their opinions. I shouldn't of said they are the hardest part about this but they can still do something to me (like the people who sent you hate mail). Either way it will be by their choice. Not mine. It is the same with my parents. Honesty is the best policy. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Ah, Catholicism. Now there's a religion about which nobody should have any illusions left. I should clarify, though, that you need not be confrontational in being honest. It's not necessarily your responsibility to let others know what you believe. If you have no personal, selfish reason for doing so, then there's no point. You don't have to call up your mom right away and say, "I've reached the conclusion that there is no god"--you just shouldn't go to church with them and things like that, and shouldn't hide or lie about your beliefs if the issue does happen to come up. As far as other people "doing something to you," don't worry about it. As long as they don't actually use force against you, there's nothing they can really do to you. Getting hate mail isn't a big deal. The first couple of times it kind of scared me, but mostly I think it was just shock at how "unChristian" my former "brothers and sisters" (in the faith) were acting. After that, I thought it was kind of funny. In fact, I have a couple of the nastiest pieces of hate mail I got framed on my wall, where my picture of Jesus used to be. It serves as an unexpectedly uplifting reminder that I'm right, and that people like that are impotent. Oh sure, there's the occasional death threat, but I'm pretty sure that none of them would have the guts (if that's an accurate description) to act on it. And I don't think that you would have to worry about it. I think the only reason it escalated to that level when I abandoned religion is because I live in Utah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted July 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 I thought about calling my mom and telling her but I didn't because I thought I should tell her in person. I don't want to be confrontational either. When the time comes I will tell them that reality is real and indepenent of consciousness even god's (which is why he is not real). If they ask me to explain I will. Maybe it won't be that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBANGSingh Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 I'm in the same boat. I have a very close-knit Sikh community, and even was an "orthodox" Sikh in my high school years. All my family is Sikh, and the majority of my friends are Sikh. While Sikhi is a philosophy based on reason, though incorrectly applied, I have to admit now that I don't believe in it and am an Objectivist. I tried explaining my new-found beliefs, or even philosophy in general, starting w/ my parents, but it seems that they don't have the capacity to understand what I'm trying to say. Any more feedback on how to live w/o tension w/ people you love after a significant personal philosophic change would be appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalism Forever Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Any more feedback on how to live w/o tension w/ people you love after a significant personal philosophic change would be appreciated The solution, of course, is to apply your newly found philosophy to the situation! Remember what Objectivism teaches about love. You do not truly love something unless you love it for a reason, i.e. there is something you value about it. If you still love your friends and family after your change in philosophy, there must be something you appreciate about them, so you could start by letting them know what exactly it is. If your friendship is to continue, it is to continue on the basis of the values you gain from it, so it is important to make clear both to yourself and to your friends what exactly the basis of your friendship is. It is also important to make clear the extent of your friendship, for example by being honest about your disagreements. While most Americans consider themselves religious, many of them pay little more than lip service to their religion. They do not want to call themselves atheists because that term has negative connotations, but it would never occur to them to use religion as the main guide to their lives. For example, the Sermon on the Mount encourages people to be poor and to "love" their enemies, but it hardly ever crosses the mind of a conservative Christian American to "kill two birds with one stone" by donating his air-conditioned home and his SUV to al-Qaeda. I do not see a problem with befriending a person who is nominally religious but otherwise quite selfish. Over time, you might even explain the contradictions of his religion to him and win him over to Objectivism. But you should begin this process by showing him how the principles of his religion are bad for his life ("I just had a conversation with a European guy who thought that Jesus wouldn't like Americans because...") rather than by just declaring, "I don't believe in God and I think anyone who does is irrational." If you bluntly attack an idea he identifies with, you have a lost cause, but if you appeal to his self-interest and he is selfish enough, then you have a good chance of convincing him. You might also have superficial friendships with people who have some limited altruistic tendencies, but such friendships will be just that: superficial--and limited by the extent to which your friend is not altruistic. All value you gain from a friendship qua friendship stems from the self-interest of your friend. If a person doesn't like himself, there is no reason for you to like him, either. (I hardly know anything about the Sikh religion, so I gave Christian examples, but I suppose the underlying ideas are more or less applicable to dealing with all religions.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBANGSingh Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Thanks for the advice. And most Sikhs hardly know anything about Sikhi anyways. I'm one of the few who correctly understand it as a philosophy of science and logic, and not a religion. If you're interested in Sikhi, I'd browse here: http://chahal.info/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucentBrave Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hello. I'm new to the forum- today, actually. I can't really give advice on the situation at hand, as I feel that it's not my decison. I would, however, like to share how I went about this exact same subject. What I did, when my mother asked me to go to church with her, was I sat her down and talked to her about how I felt about religion. I basically told her that I don't believe in God, or really have faith in anything. She wanted an explanation, of course. After I explained to her what I thought about religion, she accepted the way I thought about the matter at hand. I didn't go into all of the details. I basically said that I don't believe in God- that I believe in myself and the capacity of my own mind and what I can do with it. Although I imagined she was confused, I feel that she took the "news" quite well. However, I'm sure that any parent will react differently. I do hope that this does help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaac Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I gotta say, man, religious parents, that's gotta be rough. I can only imagine what that must be like. I've been a de-facto atheist as far back as I can remember. Around age 12, I became a soft atheist, and switched over to hard atheism when I considered the question in more detail around 18. My mother, while christian, loves her children far more than she loves god, and wants to see us do well, even if we do so as atheists. (She even teases me and my sister about our lack of faith, and takes it all very well. Unfortunately, like many christians, her religion is the source of the majority of the pain in her life, and that does kinda tear me up at times.) My father is the most secular man I've ever met - he's got the sort of religious beliefs that a person might have if religion had never been invented, i.e., he just doesn't bother with it, and doesn't really care much about it. So, the 'rents were easy to deal with for me. However, I do have a few relatives, particularly a very very Catholic grandmother. I do enjoy seeing her every once in a while, and I really have no desire whatsoever to discuss religion with her - she won't convince me, and I won't convince her, and the discussion could only bring pain to her. However, I'm an adult, and I must responsibly decide what ideas/organizations to support, and thus I don't go to church. A polite but firm "no thanks" is sufficient when I'm invited - no unnecessary explanations. Chances are, if your relatives love *you*, then even if they are concerned that you're turning your back on god or whatever, they will respond more to the WAY that you refuse to go to church, than to the FACT that you refuse. If you're picking fights about it, obviously torn up with this issue, then they won't let it rest - because they love you and want to make you better in the way that they believe that they must. However, if you're a confident and happy pillar of rationality, who simply doesn't go to church but doesn't have a bug up his ass, they'll probably be happy to just avoid the topic. But if you get threatening letters, call the police and tell them. That's just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaktree Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I tell my parents, but not fight. They are simple. Not evil philosophers. Born in capitalist country then they are capitalist. Born in religious country then they are religious. Also they work hard. They tell the truth. They did something that made me objectivist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringObjectivist Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Well, I did a good bit of things to aggravate the situation, but I hadn't really matured at the time.. when I was maybe thirteen or fourteen, I recall running around in my boxers, on Easter, screaming "YOU CAN'T KILL JESUS, YOU DAMN DIRTY JEWS", with a Catholic family.. and I was atheist at the time. However, now that I'm a rational person, they've applied their doctrine to my confession: "well, we still love you, as you're one of God's children, but you're going to burn in hell.. I'm so sorry you believe it, but I don't fault you for it". Ah well, you can't win them all, and my parents are an unwinnable battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 By the way, as kind of an update to my own situation, once you are honest with your family it becomes sort of a non-issue over time. The tension I mentioned with my family about a year ago is basically gone now. They know what I believe, and they just don't bring it up anymore (I think because I was starting to win our arguments, and they don't want to have to question their beliefs ). So even with a family in which religion is a big deal, in the long run I don't think your rejection of it will be a big deal (unless they are total zealots, but most Americans--even the explicitly religious ones who go to church every week--are mixed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've never told my parents anything about my atheism before they realized that I was one themselves. I learned that it was a rather bad move, but not because I didn't tell them one sunny day to sit down and talk about it. There is really nothing to discuss once your mind is set. What I also learned is that the fact is best communicated in a way which is most appropriate for a fact - matter of factly. Just as the tall building must look tall, so does a fact need to be conveyed as what it really is. You don't sit and talk about how tall a building is, you just say it. Likewise, you don't sit and talk about you being an atheist; you just say it. If you are asked to go to church, then the best answer is to get to the point - you don't want to go to church. Why? You're an atheist. My error was that I avoided answering. When I was told to go to church, I used to put up a show, invent excuses et cetera. Then I usually didn't go to church, but the thing repeated over and over. Every time you must make more and more effort to come up with an excuse, because the same excuse doesn't work twice. And the truth ends the pattern forever. You may think about the consequences, but what can they really be? They can't really be as bad as you letting yourself be forced to do something you don't want to, or even that which you despise. Your parents will be angry? They'll get over it and if they value you, they'll come to respect your decision. I have exposed myself as an atheist in very religious circles without making a fuss over it. I say what I think of the concept god, I answer a few questions and then it's over. If your answers are good, there will be no death threats. And what others will think of you is their own problem. Just remember that once you said you'll do something, then do it. If you said you'll go to church, then go, not because they forced you, but because you said so. Integrity is a virtue, and when you do what you said you'll do you are a man of integrity. But remember also that integrity is not surrender. Don't think you'll build up your integrity by being a yes-man, by saying yes to anyone anytime. To be a man of integrity means to hold on to principles of your own and let noone stop you from doing so. If you're an atheist, be an atheist. Just don't push it - say it only when it's worth saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowzer Posted May 14, 2004 Report Share Posted May 14, 2004 If you are asked to go to church, then the best answer is to get to the point - you don't want to go to church. Why? You're an atheist. Your post is right on, source, I just want to make a point about the "church thing." There is nothing wrong with going to church as an atheist. I go to service with my family when I am with them for holidays. We enjoy being together and attending church, for example, on Christmas Eve is very important to them. I love them very much and so I join them. It is a great value to me to go to church on these occasions. Yes, you will probably be bored but you will also be reminded that it's great to be an atheist since we don't have the burden of such boredom always on our shoulders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
source Posted May 14, 2004 Report Share Posted May 14, 2004 Yes, you will probably be bored but you will also be reminded that it's great to be an atheist since we don't have the burden of such boredom always on our shoulders. Yes, well... my past mistakes made my mom become really annoying when it comes to going to church. She's hoping now that I'll go there because of her incessant nagging. So at times I go, but only to interpret the priest's words for her correctly. Last time he was talking about sheep and shepherds. I told mom that that means she's the priest's sheep, but she said I misinterpreted it. She said nothing, though, when I equated the amount of money she gave away at mass with wool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 You may think about the consequences, but what can they really be? They can't really be as bad as you letting yourself be forced to do something you don't want to, or even that which you despise. Your parents will be angry? They'll get over it and if they value you, they'll come to respect your decision. Exactly. That's pretty much what I've said in all of my previous posts in this thread. ...If your answers are good, there will be no death threats... I'm not sure if this was meant as some sort of swipe at me, but if so I can only say that you have misread my previous posts in this thread, read something into them that wasn't there, or ignored what was there. I got death threats from people who did not know and did not care to find out my reasons for being an atheist, and who wrote anonymously so that I could not even provide them with my reasons. It had nothing to do with not having good answers, as this sentence implies. It was simply that a couple of people in my community are apparently zealots who felt threatened that one of their fold would develop a mind independent enough to leave them. That would have been the case regardless of what kind of answers I gave them, if I had even had the chance to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elle Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 When it gets down to it, if your mother really loves you for what you are and what your existence adds to her life then in the end she won't care whether or not you are religious. This is mainly because the whole point religion (from the perspective of an atheist), in its convoluted mess of "faith" compromising reason, is the same point philosophy has... to determine how man ought to live in order to live a good life. A lot of people would rather simply follow a faith or ideology rather than think for themselves, because for them that is easier, and you might actually inspire you mother to think for herself too. Even if that is not the case, you can make the choice to like her, or not. You don't have to love your mother, and anyone who is preaching unconditional love is trying to make a world of Hank Reardens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F*ckCommunism Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Oh, its nice to see i'm not the only one who has struggled witrh this... i was brought up mormon... and for 24 years i was very devout... well, i shouldn't say that... i talked the talk and walked the walk and convinced myself thats God and Christ and Joe Smith were all the truth and the way to happiness... two years ago i was married in a mormon temple... and that night i went home and decided it was all a crock... Now my mother is still completely devout, and lets me know that i'd be happier if i only started coming back to church with her... i just roll my eyes and nod my head... but she knows the seriousness of my convictions, and mostly respects my choices... luckily the people in my local ward have been pretty normal about it... i don't go telling them all that i think their dogmas and beliefs to be absurd, i don't feel the need to start anytype of argument... but i don't allow people to think i still am mormon in any way... if they ask me, i let them know what i now believe... there is no need to be rude about it... i say tell your parents, let them know what you believe... they might not understand, and might react badly... but that is their choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 i was brought up mormon... and for 24 years i was very devout... well, i shouldn't say that... i talked the talk and walked the walk and convinced myself thats God and Christ and Joe Smith were all the truth and the way to happiness... two years ago i was married in a mormon temple... and that night i went home and decided it was all a crock... I was raised Mormon as well and had a really hard time breaking with the church and convincing my entire family that it wasn't something I was interested in. Mom has come to a point where she just prays for me and leaves me alone about religion, my Dad on the other hand gives the Missionaries my address and phone number every chance he gets. If you got married in the Temple, did you also go on a mission? How does your wife feel about your rejection of the Mormon Church? I assume that she was pretty devout, considering the Temple Marriage and all. I guess the question I am asking is how do you break it to your new spouse that you think the church is a "crock"? My family took it hard, to a point that when I left the church I no longer had a place to live, but I can't imagine how a new spouse would react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janie Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 F*ck Communism, I just realized that your name was Laura, so I apoplogize if I have offended in making assumptions about your gender. But I am still curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F*ckCommunism Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 my Husband also left the church... (i am a lady) i had a hard time convincing my mom that i really didn't believe it anymore... she thought i was leaving because i wanted to 'party'... my hubby had joined the church after he met me, and wasn't as strong in the faith as i was... i was careful not to say anything to him til i was sure (altho i couldn't bring myself to believe in the god i had for so long, i was careful not to tell my momma for a while... i talked with my hubby about it, and he listened carefully, then went back to the temple the next day for another session... he and i didn't discuss it for ahile, during which i read as much as i could for and against the subject, just to make sure i was making the right decision... (i always check my motives and underlying reasons for the choices i make, to decide if they are based oin facts or based on how i want to see the facts because of my desires...) finally, he talked tome about it again, and told me he never really felt that the mormons were right (he had been a baptist before he met me) and that he would support whatever decision i made... well, we both lefrt, he has since stopped believing in god as well... based on his own study and pondering... but i feel like things could have been worse... my older brother went on a mission, was married in the temple and had two sons with his wife before they seperated and left the church... he went about tellling my mom in a more confrontational way, and it is still a sore spot between them... i choose to let others have their beliefs, and explain mine when the situation so dictates... funny enough, the bishop of my ward accepted my decision as soon as i told him... hedidn't even try to counsel me against my choice... he was more worried about taking my name off the records of the church so his ward would look good to the utahns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshRyan Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Oh, its nice to see i'm not the only one who has struggled witrh this... i was brought up mormon... Another ex-Mormon! You're at least the fourth one on this board that I know of, so you're definitely not alone. I also decided the church was wrong the night of my first trip through the temple (I was supposed to leave on a mission a few days later). But to have to go through that on your wedding day! You have my deepest sympathy. At least your husband came to the same conclusions about religion as you. Going to the temple was by far the most degrading experience of my life, and I regard it as an evil place. To this day I will not support temple marriages, and since most of my old friends from high school are Mormon, I have to miss their weddings. But I simply could not pretend to celebrate such a horrible thing for their sakes. My brother has recently been dating someone pretty seriously, and I just hope to god that he does not get married in the temple, because I don't know what I'll do if he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F*ckCommunism Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 i do have to clarify, i was sealed in the temple... i had been married a year and a half previous, because my hubby wanted to have his parents there (they are devout baptists... stew, my husband, was going to be a baptist minister before we mormons 'stole' him away...) but mormonism was my life... i had been such a huge part of my ward and stake activites, and i live in a part of canada that had one stake for three provinces and part of maine... what got to me was the way it'll warp your mind so you can justify anything you believe, even against reason... most of the people i was close to were intelligent, able people, but when i went thru the temple with them, i just couldn't look at them the same... i have to admit, being a mormon growing up taught me a lot of skills, and i don't think i would want to trade those experiences... amusingly enough, it was the church that taught me the principle that ultimately brought about my 'apostasy' (i snicker at the word) "i will have the integrity to make my actions consistent with my knowledge of right and wrong"... so once i knew it was wrong, i had to act accordingly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles T. Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 I'm getting more and more curious: what does it mean to "go through the temple"? Is it some horrible ceremony or "rite"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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