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Can it be rational to be a socialist?

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What is different about this question from the one you asked about different moralities. Yes, it can be rational, but certainly it'd be mistaken. That's different than evading once you discover later that there is nothing rational about socialist. Context of knowledge determines what is rational for you do, provided that you always do use the process of reason to come to conclusions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can it be rational to be a socialist if your decision is based on the full use of your rational capacity?

Sure, it can be rational, but only if your foundation is not anchored in objective reality.

Rationalists do this kind of thing all the time. Come up with some arbitrary claim, and then rationally derive a whole set of conclusions from it. The problem is that if the original claim is not anchored in objective reality, then everything you derive from it is wrong, even though it was rationally derived.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sure, it can be rational, but only if your foundation is not anchored in objective reality.

Rationalists do this kind of thing all the time. Come up with some arbitrary claim, and then rationally derive a whole set of conclusions from it. The problem is that if the original claim is not anchored in objective reality, then everything you derive from it is wrong, even though it was rationally derived.

This type of thinking is not "rational" in the usual Objectivist sense of the term.

In certain contexts of knowledge, it can be rational to be a socialist. For example, imagine a man who lives in a feudal, mystic society and knows nothing about rational philosophy or politics. He somehow gets a copy of the works of Karl Marx and realizes that it is of a much higher caliber than the dogma he is taught at his church. Consequently, he is taken in by these arguments and becomes a Marxist. His behavior is rational up to this point. What is irrational is for him to evade the obvious problems that come with implementing these ideas (or attempting to explore their deeper implications, such as the absence of free will) and declare it a problem with reality rather than with his theory.

So, essentially, it is not irrational for a man to be a socialist at some stage of his intellectual development so long as he continues to engage with reality, which, of course, will lead him out of socialism.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This type of thinking is not "rational" in the usual Objectivist sense of the term.

In certain contexts of knowledge, it can be rational to be a socialist. For example, imagine a man who lives in a feudal, mystic society and knows nothing about rational philosophy or politics. He somehow gets a copy of the works of Karl Marx and realizes that it is of a much higher caliber than the dogma he is taught at his church. Consequently, he is taken in by these arguments and becomes a Marxist. His behavior is rational up to this point. What is irrational is for him to evade the obvious problems that come with implementing these ideas (or attempting to explore their deeper implications, such as the absence of free will) and declare it a problem with reality rather than with his theory.

So, essentially, it is not irrational for a man to be a socialist at some stage of his intellectual development so long as he continues to engage with reality, which, of course, will lead him out of socialism.

I would have to agree with this. I used to think that socialism was good, and the only way to maintain order in a society is to have strict control, simply because I went to school with a bunch of trailer trash baptist idiots that I didn't want to deal with, but over the years I began to see how wrong that was. I read all about Karl Marx and eugenics and was fascinated by it, I'm so disgusted remembering it.

Edited by Dreamspirit
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This type of thinking is not "rational" in the usual Objectivist sense of the term.

In certain contexts of knowledge, it can be rational to be a socialist. For example, imagine a man who lives in a feudal, mystic society and knows nothing about rational philosophy or politics. He somehow gets a copy of the works of Karl Marx and realizes that it is of a much higher caliber than the dogma he is taught at his church. Consequently, he is taken in by these arguments and becomes a Marxist. His behavior is rational up to this point. What is irrational is for him to evade the obvious problems that come with implementing these ideas (or attempting to explore their deeper implications, such as the absence of free will) and declare it a problem with reality rather than with his theory.

So, essentially, it is not irrational for a man to be a socialist at some stage of his intellectual development so long as he continues to engage with reality, which, of course, will lead him out of socialism.

I disagree with the validity of your example. It's not rational to "be taken in" by an argument just because it appears to be of a "higher caliber" than religious nonsense. That is basically emotionalism, if what you intended to say was that the man was greatly impressed by the arguments without understanding them. I do not think it is possible to be a true socialist who fully grasps the ideas involved while still being rational in that respect.

In any case, I want to add that I agree with your assessment of the contextual nature of rationality. One can be rational even in holding a mistaken belief at times given a specific context.

Edited by ttime
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Can it be rational to be a socialist?

Nope. Politics is an extension of Ethics. Socialism is rooted in altruism. Altruism is rooted in religion and blind acceptance.

if your decision is based on the full use of your rational capacity

You might be honestly mistaken about socialism being efficient, at least in a world that never experienced socialism before. Someone in the 19th century might make that honest mistake.

But not even he could be honestly mistaken about socialism being moral. Unless he has accepted, unquestioningly and entirely without the use of his rational capacity, that altruism is the good. But then you can't say his decisions are based on the full use of his rational capacity, can you?

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Rand herself admits that she could not have conceived of her view of humanity and of how it should be organized politically without the aid of the examples set in the early industrial revolution, where trade was (mostly) voluntary. Is she admitting then that before this time, she would have an irrational view of political philosophy? No, merely that the evidence for what we now know as the best socio-economic system was not available to those in the 17th century.

Of course now, believing in the power of the state as or any forced together collective as the arbiter of political rule is as irrational as belief in God. Belief in god many moons ago might not have been unjustified. However, in the past 200 years our knowledge of nature has grown in leaps and bounds. An admittance into one's knowledge of God or of the valid power of the state in social organization shows a rather willful or malignant ignorance of the facts. Perhaps an individual in North Korea or the African jungle may not know the benefits of capitalism, but when one lives in a relatively free society, where the fruits of capitalism have come to bear, one can draw no reasonable conclusion about those who support socialist or any sort of totalitarian policy other than that person is malignantly ignorant at least in this aspect of his philosophy and likely in other aspects.

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Socialism is rational and self-evident if one holds theft to be moral. If property itself is defined as theft, as it is in Marxism, then Marxism is rational. Since the premise is false, the conclusion is false, but entirely rational.

Starting with false premises and reaching worthless conclusions is rational? Why? What is being accomplished?

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Socialism is a flavor of collectivism, or a political system based on slavery and mysticism, or in a more abstract concept: it is a system based on force. Advocates of any collectivist system usually evade their fundamental contradictions which are specifically Existence = Identity. Consciousness = Identification. Therefore advocates reject the notion that Man has free will and is merely a collection of atoms, programmed by fate, god, or genes. Man doesn't have a mind, they contend, therefore Man cannot be held accountable for any of his behaviors. This means that Socialism's efforts to redistribute wealth equally, or to a degree more equally, is morally right because its not Johnny's fault that he isn't smart enough to be an astronaut and just as importantly, Maria the physicist, the one who works to understand and solve and create and produce did so automatically just like her genes/god/fate designed her to do, therefore she has no right to a larger paycheck than Johnny. Socialism is the political system of determinism, subjectivism, and anti-reason because it denies the Individual and claims his life, his ability, and his productive output belongs to everyone and anyone in society. Socialists deny Free Will, they deny the right to property, and they deny the right to life.

It is absolutely, objectively irrational to contend that socialism is viable, that socialism is moral, and/or that socialism is rational.

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