Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[whYNOT]

40 minutes ago, AlexL said:

It is working perfectly: none of my claims were disproved.

Claims and propositions require piecing together facts. If you'd made one, brought up for proof, I would recall it.

For picking over details, you're the man!

 

 

[SpookyKitty]

7 hours ago, AlexL said:

Before addressing your objections, I draw your attention to the fact that you missed my main factual point - the implausibility of the alleged Israeli intention to kill all the residents of Gaza (=genocide) - the one based on the number of killed.

Sorry, i forgot to address that. But it must be addressed because it's very important and also a common form of genocide denial.

Genocides almost never occur in an all at once fashion. Genocide and holocaust scholars recognize that genocides happen in stages of escalating hate and violence:

The stages are:

1. Classification – The differences between people are not respected. There’s a division of ‘us’ and ‘them’ which can be carried out using stereotypes, or excluding people who are perceived to be different.
2. Symbolisation – This is a visual manifestation of hatred. Jews in Nazi Europe were forced to wear yellow stars to show that they were ‘different’.
3. Discrimination – The dominant group denies civil rights or even citizenship to identified groups. The 1935 Nuremberg Laws stripped Jews of their German citizenship, made it illegal for them to do many jobs or to marry German non-Jews.
4. Dehumanisation – Those perceived as ‘different’ are treated with no form of human rights or personal dignity. During the Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, Tutsis were referred to as ‘cockroaches’; the Nazis referred to Jews as ‘vermin’.
5. Organisation – Genocides are always planned. Regimes of hatred often train those who go on to carry out the destruction of a people.
6. Polarisation – Propaganda begins to be spread by hate groups. The Nazis used the newspaper Der Stürmer to spread and incite messages of hate about Jewish people.
7. Preparation – Perpetrators plan the genocide. They often use euphemisms such as the Nazis’ phrase ‘The Final Solution’ to cloak their intentions. They create fear of the victim group, building up armies and weapons.
8. Persecution – Victims are identified because of their ethnicity or religion and death lists are drawn up. People are sometimes segregated into ghettos, deported or starved and property is often expropriated. Genocidal massacres begin.
9. Extermination – The hate group murders their identified victims in a deliberate and systematic campaign of violence. Millions of lives have been destroyed or changed beyond recognition through genocide.
10. Denial – The perpetrators or later generations deny the existence of any crime.

Source: https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/

The argument that "Well, they didn't kill them all at once, so no genocide occurred," can be made at almost any point during the extermination of a people. We must recognize and condemn genocide BEFORE the victims are all exterminated.

[AlexL]

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

If you'd made one, brought up for proof, I would recall it.

It is you who suggested that "it is not working well for me", it is then for you to point out which of my claims were disproved.

[AlexL]

54 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

The argument that "Well, they didn't kill them all at once, so no genocide occurred," [...]

My main factual point was about the implausibility of the alleged Israeli intention to kill all the residents of Gaza (=genocide), and it was based on analysis of the number of killed Gazans.

15-20'000 killed out of 2.4 millions in a densely populated urban area after allegedly blind bombardment with about the equivalent of 15-20'000'000 kg of TNT (Hiroshima bomb!) is a pathetic performance for an intended genocide (=intention to kill all the residents of Gaza).

[SpookyKitty]

9 minutes ago, AlexL said:

My main factual point was about the implausibility of the alleged Israeli intention to kill all the residents of Gaza (=genocide), and it was based on analysis of the number of killed Gazans.

15-20'000 killed out of 2.4 millions in a densely populated urban area after allegedly blind bombardment with about the equivalent of 15-20'000'000 kg of TNT (Hiroshima bomb!) is a pathetic performance for an intended genocide (=intention to kill all the residents of Gaza).

I never said that the bombing was "blind". I do, however, claim that it is "indiscriminate" which means that it does not distinguish between civilians and enemy combatants.

Some of the ordinance is deliberately dropped on civilians. Most of it is dropped on civilian infrastructure after most civilians have fled in order to make it as difficult as possible for those civilians to return.

The Israelis know very well that if they "blow their load" (to put it crudely) all at once, they risk alienating the entire international community. So instead, they are steadily escalating the level of violence against civilians as the genocide drags on.

If you recall, at the beginning of the conflict, the hasbarists were claiming that it was OUTRAGEOUS to suggest that Israel could have bombed Al-Shifa or any hospital full of civilians. That was 20 hospitals full of patients ago.

[AlexL]

1 hour ago, SpookyKitty said:

Some of the ordinance is deliberately dropped on civilians.

You mean knowing that there are only civilians there? How do you know what they do know? Mind reading? Or it is because you need to assume this in order to come out with "genocide"?

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Most of it is dropped on civilian infrastructure after most civilians have fled in order to make it as difficult as possible for those civilians to return.

Mind reading again? Or you have some solid direct evidence that this was the intention?

How do you know that the locations/buildings were not used by Hamas operatives, which would make them legitimate targets?

All in all, you don't have an explanation why the number of killed Palestinians tops at 15-20'000 in "the most densely populated area" with 2.4 millions of people, after using a dozen of kilotons of explosives in "indiscriminate" bombings, within a strategy of "genocide"

Edited December 18, 2023 by AlexL

[SpookyKitty]

Firstly, It's not necessary to know that only civilians were in an area in order to conclude that civilians were deliberately targeted. It is only necessary to show that civilians were killed regardless of whether or not enemy combatants were also present. Israel has repeatedly dropped bombs on Gaza that level entire city blocks. These kinds of explosives are too powerful to be specifically directed at a military objective (as is required by international law according to the principle of distinction) in an area as densely populated as Gaza. (sources regarding my claims about international law will be provided later today since I'm writing this from my phone)

Secondly, although civilian casualties are, to some extent, unavoidable in an armed conflict, the mere presence of Hamas operatives in a building or in an area is an insufficient reason to justify the targeting of a civilian installation. International law requires that belligerents adhere also to the principle of proportionality which requires that potential harm to civilians be proportional to the military advantages that may be gained from attacking a civilian installation.

Thirdly, in some cases, such as in the case of Al-Shifa and other hospitals, we do not need to know whether or not Hamas operatives were present in order to know that these were not legitimate targets for Israeli strikes. International law requires that if there is any doubt about the nature of a civilian installation, it must be presumed to be civilian.

With regard to specific intent to commit genocide, I believe that the quotes I provided to you earlier are sufficient. Within that context, it is no longer necessary to prove that Israel is destroying residential areas with the intent to prevent Palestinians from returning there. Rather, we can safely conclude that Israel's illegal destruction of residential areas is itself evidence of their intent to depopulate Gaza.

 

[AlexL]

32 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

Firstly, [...]

You still didn't explain the extraordinary low number of bombardment victims (low in context), after using a dozen of kilotons of explosives in "indiscriminate" bombings, within a strategy of "genocide" - allegedly 20K out of 2.4 millions, that is no more than 0.08%
---------
You cannot reason people out of something they were not reasoned into (Jonathan Swift?)

Edited December 18, 2023 by AlexL

[SpookyKitty]

15 minutes ago, AlexL said:

You still didn't explain the extraordinary low number of bombardment victims (low in context), after using a dozen of kilotons of explosives in "indiscriminate" bombings, within a strategy of "genocide" - allegedly 20K out of 2.4 millions, that is no more than 0.08%
---------
You cannot reason people out of something they were not reasoned into (Jonathan Swift?)

But I did. Did you not read my post? Here it is again:

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Some of the ordinance is deliberately dropped on civilians. Most of it is dropped on civilian infrastructure after most civilians have fled in order to make it as difficult as possible for those civilians to return.

The Israelis know very well that if they "blow their load" (to put it crudely) all at once, they risk alienating the entire international community. So instead, they are steadily escalating the level of violence against civilians as the genocide drags on.

Your only response to this was that Israel's strikes against civilian might have been legitimate and that I would need special access to certain kinds of knowledge that I could not have in order to make the determination that Israel's strikes against Gaza are indiscriminate. I dismantled any such notions in my previous post. Thus far, you have not presented any counterargument to my claim, you're just claiming that my explanation doesn't exist when it is clearly in front of you.

By the way, here is the source for my claims about international law:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/questions-and-answers-october-2023-hostilities-between-israel-and-palestinian-armed

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The laws of war recognize that some civilian casualties may be inevitable during armed conflict, but impose a duty on warring parties at all times to distinguish between combatants and civilians, and to target only combatants and other military objectives. The fundamental tenets of international humanitarian law are “civilian immunity” and the principle of “distinction.”

Combatants include members of a country’s armed forces and commanders and full-time fighters in non-state armed groups. They are subject to attack at all times during hostilities unless they are captured or incapacitated.

Civilians lose their immunity from attack when and only for such time as they are directly participating in hostilities. According to guidance by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the laws of war distinguish between members of the organized fighting forces of a non-state party, who may be targeted during an armed conflict, and part-time fighters, who are civilians who may only be targeted when and only for such time as they are directly participating in hostilities. Similarly, reservists of national armed forces are considered civilians except when they go on duty, in which case they are combatants subject to attack. Fighters who leave the armed group, as well as regular army reservists who reintegrate into civilian life, are civilians until they are called back to active duty.

For an individual’s act to constitute direct participation in hostilities, it must imminently be capable of causing harm to opposing forces and must be deliberately carried out to support a party to the armed conflict. Direct participation in hostilities includes measures taken in preparation for executing the act, as well as deployment to and return from the location where the act is carried out.

ICRC guidance also sets out that people who have exclusively non-combat functions in armed groups, including political or administrative roles, or are merely members of or affiliated with political entities that have an armed component, such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, may not be targeted at any time unless and only for such time as they, like any other civilian, directly participate in the hostilities. That is, membership or affiliation with a Palestinian movement with an armed wing is not a sufficient basis for determining an individual to be a lawful military target.

The laws of war also protect civilian objects, which are defined as anything not considered a legitimate military objective. Prohibited are direct attacks against civilian objects, such as homes and apartments, places of worship, hospitals and other medical facilities, schools, and cultural monuments. Civilian objects become subject to legitimate attack when they become military objectives; that is, when they are making an effective contribution to military action and their destruction, capture, or neutralization offers a definite military advantage, subject to the rules of proportionality. This would include the presence of members of armed groups or military forces in what are normally civilian objects. Where there is doubt about the nature of an object, it must be presumed to be civilian.

The laws of war prohibit indiscriminate attacks. Indiscriminate attacks strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. Examples of indiscriminate attacks are those that are not directed at a specific military objective or that use weapons that cannot be directed at a specific military objective. Prohibited indiscriminate attacks include area bombardment, which are attacks by artillery or other means that treat as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in an area containing a concentration of civilians and civilian objects.

An attack on an otherwise legitimate military target is prohibited if it would violate the principle of proportionality. Disproportionate attacks are those that may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects that would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the attack.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by SpookyKitty

[necrovore]

Ayn Rand herself wrote about the subject of innocents in war; she had, after all, seen World War II. What do you think about the bombings of Dresden, or Hiroshima? Those affected a lot of civilians.

[SpookyKitty]

18 minutes ago, necrovore said:

Ayn Rand herself wrote about the subject of innocents in war; she had, after all, seen World War II. What do you think about the bombings of Dresden, or Hiroshima? Those affected a lot of civilians.

I honestly don't know since I haven't really looked into those in any detail.

[whYNOT]

21 hours ago, AlexL said:

My main factual point was about the implausibility of the alleged Israeli intention to kill all the residents of Gaza (=genocide), and it was based on analysis of the number of killed Gazans.

15-20'000 killed out of 2.4 millions in a densely populated urban area after allegedly blind bombardment with about the equivalent of 15-20'000'000 kg of TNT (Hiroshima bomb!) is a pathetic performance for an intended genocide (=intention to kill all the residents of Gaza).

Already established, the intent of the exercise: to discredit and undermine Israel and the Israelis in particular and Jews everywhere. When this is known the rest is easier to understand. 

An intent proven by the basic fact, a premeditated violent attack on Israel - which would goad a violent response - which would have children killed for certain.

The rest will follow, outraged mass condemnation of the responders, not of the perpetrators.  Blame will be diverted from the deliberate death-dealers. "Genocide" accusations will emanate from the intended and proven genociders themselves and from their support base.

A false alternative, it is no self-contraction to be deeply disturbed by both sets of violence. The normally rational person one can engage with, will say how terrible is the response - and - how egregious were the initial assaults. Then, he/she shows awareness of the grim, but just, cause of the former by the second.  The ones to avoid with suspicion are those who, with appeals to emotion, exclusively justify the perpetrators.

Fundamentalist Muslim "taqyyia" - the duty of "deception" towards "infidels" and enemies - is never out of play. Much of this conflict and its perceptions are psychological. So some/many reports and casualty numbers inside the conflict zone will be exaggerated or entirely fabricated. One (e.g.) can be sure that some of the claims of journalists shot by IDF were Hamas operatives posing as reporters. I've known a few like that in active situations. When the terrorist enemy is (by definition) dressed in civilian clothes, and not ostensibly carrying or firing a weapon, he can blend into the crowds.

Also to be absorbed critically are the IDF reports, though I have found them quite candid and reliable, even to their own discomfort. Unofficially they've estimated the ratio of civilians killed to Hamas operatives killed - 2 : I. Therefore "18,000" - if accurate - can be reduced to 12,000 civilians. Not pleasant, though a remarkably low ratio in this type of street/tunnel guerilla war and hardly pre-deliberated genocide. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by whYNOT

[AlexL]

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

Already established, the intent of the exercise: to discredit [...]

Whose exercise?

[SpookyKitty]

If anyone here is still misinformed enough to believe that Israel is anything but an almost indescribably evil, racist, genocidal lunatic state led by twisted, sick men who promulgate the most anti-man, anti-western ideologies imaginable, then watch this lecture by Israeli investigative journalist David Sheen wherein he describes the Israeli far-right "Messianic" movement and its connections to the Israeli government.

He first talks about the beliefs of the religious far-right rabbis at Israel's top military academy. The religious far-right is fully in the mainstream of Israeli society. They constitute the second largest group in the Knesset. Remember that these people are TO THE LEFT of the messianic movement. The views of the religious far right are already so extreme that I cannot even begin to comprehend the sheer level of madness that is required to believe them. One of the rabbis wants to bring back slavery. Another describes his own ideology as explicitly anti-man and claims that Western values are the "true" holocaust.  A third one describes Hitler as "the most moral person possible". This is the Israeli MAINSTREAM. THIS GARBAGE IS WHAT IDF OFFICERS ARE TAUGHT.

But The Messianics are somehow even more extreme than this. How? How? It's so crazy it cannot be believed. Watch this video to fully understand what we are dealing with here and how this affects American politics:

 

[AlexL]

1 hour ago, SpookyKitty said:

Israel ... an almost[?] indescribably evil, racist, genocidal lunatic state led by twisted, sick men who promulgate the most anti-man, anti-western ideologies imaginable... watch this lecture by Israeli investigative journalist David Sheen wherein he describes the Israeli far-right "Messianic" movement and its connections to the Israeli government [...]

So, in your view, the entire Israel is evil because there is, in Israel, a specific movement which is evil. Let's then see first how popular it is:

Here is the breakdown of seats for the party groups in the current 120-seat Israeli Knesset following the March 2021 elections:

• Center-right/right parties: Around 53 seats
• Center-left/left parties: Around 36 seats
• Ultra-Orthodox Jewish parties: 16 seats
• Arab parties: 6 seats
• Other/unaligned: 9 seats

The Ultra-Orthodox group represents slightly more than 13% of the parliament. It is indeed "connected to the government" because, due to the strictly proportional representation, it is almost impossible for a government to form without the support of these people - which allows them to participate in almost all Israeli governments; today with 6 members out of 36.

Yes, religious far-right is indeed "in the mainstream of Israeli society", but only in the sense that about 13% of the Israelis vote or them. 

You presented the Ultra-Orthodox as the root cause and proof of Israel being an "indescribably evil, racist, genocidal lunatic state led by twisted, sick men who promulgate the most anti-man, anti-western ideologies imaginable."

As less than 15% of Israelis vote for them, you should try to find another root cause of the "indescribably evil, racist, genocidal lunatic" character of Israel.😁 Besides, you are far from having proved racist and genocidal  character of Israel. I hope to return to this point later, as well as to your other claims. But meanwhile you can start collecting facts/proof about

1 hour ago, SpookyKitty said:

THIS GARBAGE IS WHAT IDF OFFICERS ARE TAUGHT.

PS: You are trying to argue that Israel is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza (and in Palestine in general) by analyzing the ideological currents in the Israeli society - instead of by examining the factual events, like the enormous percentage of dead Gazans or the catastrophic fall in the Palestinian population, in West Bank and Gaza.

As to your "analysis" of the ideological currents - it is all fraudulent.

PS2. The David Sheen lecture is sponsored by www.palaestina.ch. Is it from this kind of sites that you get your information regarding Israel ?

Edited December 20, 2023 by AlexL

[Eiuol]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:47 AM, SpookyKitty said:

Genocides almost never occur in an all at once fashion. Genocide and holocaust scholars recognize that genocides happen in stages of escalating hate and violence:

But by that standard, there needs to be evidence that they are going through with the rest of the steps. There is a good case for all the way up to and including 3, but the rest of the steps indicate a systematic plan of action. Genocide still sounds like hyperbole; an improperly waged war may have racist overtones depending on who is defending it, but that doesn't then make the war a genocide. Vietnam was not a genocide for example, as bad as it was. In this case, there is justification for the war even if not justification for the way the war has been waged, which is different than genocides where literally the only violation was existing. 

Now you might argue that Israel manufactured the kidnappings, a sort of social engineering project, but then we are getting into territory like "did the CIA kill Kennedy?" If there is an equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, then you have a case to make. Otherwise, I think you are reaching. Give me documents, testimony, something stating intent. 

But I have to say, Israel killing three of its own is a catastrophic error, it indicates that Israel lacks competency. Lack of competency is different than genocidal intent, though.

1 hour ago, SpookyKitty said:

then watch this lecture by Israeli investigative journalist David Sheen wherein he describes the Israeli far-right "Messianic" movement and its connections to the Israeli government.

Don't be like the people who say that since they found a few Nazis in the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian military must be infested by Nazis. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Eiuol

[SpookyKitty]

38 minutes ago, AlexL said:

So, in your view, the entire Israel is evil because there is, in Israel, a specific movement which is evil.

No, my view is that STATE of Israel is evil because its ruling parties tolerate, endorse, and protect these insane extremists by shielding them from prosecution for their terroristic crimes and do not condemn or repudiate them. Watch the entire lecture before responding to me on this topic, because I know you sure as hell didn't watch the entire 90 minute lecture in less than 30 minutes.

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PS: You are trying to argue that Israel is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza (and in Palestine in general) by analyzing the ideological currents in the Israeli society - instead of by examining the factual events, like the enormous percentage of dead Gazans or the catastrophic fall in the Palestinian population, in West Bank and Gaza.

As to your "analysis" of the ideological currents - it is all fraudulent.

PS2. The David Sheen lecture is sponsored by www.palaestina.ch. Is it from this kind of sites that you get your information regarding Israel ?

You're clearly all out of arguments. All you have left is racist memes and head-in-the-sand denialism. We're done speaking.

[SpookyKitty]

28 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

But by that standard, there needs to be evidence that they are going through with the rest of the steps.

 

For what purpose? That was in response to AlexL's ridiculous claim that no genocide occurred because not everyone was immediately killed. I do not need to show evidence of all the other steps when we are clearly already at the extermination phase.

 

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Genocide still sounds like hyperbole; an improperly waged war may have racist overtones depending on who is defending it, but that doesn't then make the war a genocide. Vietnam was not a genocide for example, as bad as it was. In this case, there is justification for the war even if not justification for the way the war has been waged, which is different than genocides where literally the only violation was existing. 

 

Holocaust scholar Raz Segal has called Israel's attack on Gaza a "textbook case of genocide":

Source: https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

 

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Now you might argue that Israel manufactured the kidnappings, a sort of social engineering project, but then we are getting into territory like "did the CIA kill Kennedy?" If there is an equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, then you have a case to make. Otherwise, I think you are reaching. Give me documents, testimony, something stating intent. 

 

What???

 

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But I have to say, Israel killing three of its own is a catastrophic error, it indicates that Israel lacks competency. Lack of competency is different than genocidal intent, though.

 

This is not an "error". This is systematic and has been going on for a long time. The only thing unusual about this case is that it happened to Israelis instead of Palestinians.

 

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Don't be like the people who say that since they found a few Nazis in the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian military must be infested by Nazis. 

Please watch the whole lecture before commenting about it. This is a strawman argument. I recognize the fact that in any large enough group of people you're gonna find some crazies, but this goes way beyond that.

[Eiuol]

46 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

I do not need to show evidence of all the other steps when we are clearly already at the extermination phase.

4-8 are missing. Even if you went all the way to 6, there is still not enough for it to be a genocide. Of course genocides don't happen instantly, there is a process, but you still have to establish that the intent is all the way to 9. 

53 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

What???

 

Good thing you aren't then.

53 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

This is not an "error". This is systematic and has been going on for a long time.

Since I think it's hyperbole to say it's a genocide, my explanation is incompetency primarily. 

55 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

This is a strawman argument.

You were condemning an entire government based on a minority group within that government. 13% is a sickening number for that kind of group, but to consider that explicit moral endorsement by the political decision-makers is entirely different. I'll take a look at your video, but from the sounds of what you told us, it just talks about one group, not the way that the Israeli government has incorporated the ideas of that group specifically. 

[SpookyKitty]

28 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

4-8 are missing. Even if you went all the way to 6, there is still not enough for it to be a genocide. Of course genocides don't happen instantly, there is a process, but you still have to establish that the intent is all the way to 9.

The process described in that post is not the definition of genocide and these steps are not required to happen for it to be a genocide. This is simply a description of how genocides typically occur and explains why it is not true that every Palestinian would be killed all at once or even quickly. I provided the definition of genocide under international law and presented evidence about how Israel's actions in Gaza fit them in previous posts.

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Since I think it's hyperbole to say it's a genocide, my explanation is incompetency primarily. 

Hunting down the third victim and then killing him after killing the first two, even though it was absolutely clear that none of them were a threat and were surrendering, is not incompetence by any stretch of the imagination. 

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You were condemning an entire government based on a minority group within that government. 13% is a sickening number for that kind of group, but to consider that explicit moral endorsement by the political decision-makers is entirely different. I'll take a look at your video, but from the sounds of what you told us, it just talks about one group, not the way that the Israeli government has incorporated the ideas of that group specifically. 

Oh it absolutely does. The video goes into great detail about how Likud, Israel's biggest party, Netanyahu's party, cooperates with these lunatics, and also how many of these Messianics were incorporated into and white-washed by Likud.

Is anyone here going to sit there and seriously tell me that 87% of the Knesset cannot form a government against the ABSOLUTELY INSANE 13%?

If Israel were a sane country, absolutely none of the other parties would ever be caught dead in a government with these people. If, in any European country, a major party formed a government with Nazis, we would rightly denounce the entire government as Nazis.

The truth of the matter is that ultra-religious beliefs are fully mainstream in Israeli society, and the only difference between Likud and the ultra-religious is that they are saying all the quiet parts out loud.

Edited December 20, 2023 by SpookyKitty

[Eiuol]

52 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

This is simply a description of how genocides typically occur

And importantly, it mentions the systematic nature of it, not in an ad hoc disorganized way. I'm thinking of Vietnam, where US soldiers did horrific things, but not perpetrated in a way that was systematic by the US military or cohesive across the US military. As bad as this was, and being probably racially motivated, it wasn't genocide. I don't think what you say is as clear as you make it out to be, other than being the horrific nature of war in general when bad actors do bad things. 

52 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

Hunting down the third victim and then killing him after killing the first two, even though it was absolutely clear that none of them were a threat and were surrendering, is not incompetence by any stretch of the imagination. 

How did the chain of command run here? Were the soldiers bad actors, ignoring orders or normal procedure? Could it be brought about by a culture of violence within the military that commanders fail to deal with, rather than overt orders to kill everybody on sight? That's what I mean by incompetence. Poor leadership and poor guidance on their own also lead to atrocities, like what happened in Vietnam. 

52 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

Is anyone here going to sit there and seriously tell me that 87% of the Knesset cannot form a government against the ABSOLUTELY INSANE 13%?

I will watch the video. But the statement here doesn't indicate anything other than unwillingness to deal with internal threats to liberty. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Eiuol

[SpookyKitty]

3 hours ago, Eiuol said:

And importantly, it mentions the systematic nature of it, not in an ad hoc disorganized way. I'm thinking of Vietnam, where US soldiers did horrific things, but not perpetrated in a way that was systematic by the US military or cohesive across the US military. As bad as this was, and being probably racially motivated, it wasn't genocide. I don't think what you say is as clear as you make it out to be, other than being the horrific nature of war in general when bad actors do bad things.

The word "systematic" does not appear anywhere in the UN genocide convention. Neither systematicity nor organization is a requirement for something to qualify as a genocide. Most genocides are very stochastic and disorganized efforts. Only very few, such as the Holocaust, are of a systematic and well organized nature.

The reason that Vietnam does not qualify as genocide, although the US certainly committed war crimes there, is because there was no special intent by any part of US leadership to destroy the Vietnamese people as such.

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How did the chain of command run here? Were the soldiers bad actors, ignoring orders or normal procedure? Could it be brought about by a culture of violence within the military that commanders fail to deal with, rather than overt orders to kill everybody on sight? That's what I mean by incompetence. Poor leadership and poor guidance on their own also lead to atrocities, like what happened in Vietnam. 

 

Here is what the IDF says happened that day:

Source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-war-52fa9628e6284cdad6d7f7db6cc30742

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TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israelis were left stunned and speechless when three hostages held by Hamas were killed by Israeli forces in the middle of an active war zone after they waved a white flag and screamed out in Hebrew to show they did not pose a threat.

For some, the incident was a shocking example of the ugliness of war, where a complex and dangerous battlefield is safe for no one. But for critics, the incident underscores what they say is the excessively violent conduct of Israel’s security apparatus against Palestinians. Except in this case, it cut short the lives of three Israelis trying desperately to save themselves.

“It’s heartbreaking but it’s not surprising,” said Roy Yellin, director of public outreach with the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. “We have documented over the years countless incidents of people who clearly surrendered and who were still shot.”

Yellin said the killings violated basic military ethics and international law that prohibit shooting at people trying to surrender, whether combatants or not. But he said it was part of a long trend of largely unpunished excessive force that in recent weeks has ensnared Israelis themselves.

According to a military official, the three hostages, all men in their 20s, emerged from a building close to Israeli soldiers’ positions in the Gaza City neighborhood of Shijaiyah, where troops have been battling Hamas militants in intense combat.

They waved a white flag and were shirtless, possibly trying to signal they posed no threat. Two were killed immediately, and the third ran back into the building screaming for help in Hebrew. The commander issued an order to cease fire, but another burst of gunfire killed the third man, the official said.

The army’s chief, Lt. Col. Herzi Halevi, said hostages “did everything possible” to make it clear they did not pose a threat, but that the soldiers acted “during combat and under pressure.”

On Sunday, Halevi reviewed the rules of engagement with troops, saying the prohibition against opening fire on those who surrender must also apply to Palestinians.

“When you see two people who do not threaten you, who don’t have weapons, who have their hands up and are not wearing shirts, take two seconds,” he said in comments broadcast on Israeli TV. “And I want to tell you something that is no less important: if these are two Gazans with a white flag who want to surrender, will we shoot them? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. That is not the IDF (Israel Defense Forces).”

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Saturday that the killings “broke my heart, broke the entire nation’s heart,” but he indicated no change in Israel’s intensive military campaign. With popular opinion firmly behind the military effort, the hostages’ deaths weren’t likely to prompt a change in the public mood.

Israel says a number of hostages have died in Hamas captivity. But the deaths of the three hostages struck a nerve because they were killed by the forces trying to rescue them.

Roughly 129 hostages remain in the Gaza Strip, according to the Israeli military, and their plight has gripped the nation, which sees their captivity as the embodiment of the security failure surrounding Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack that sparked the war. The hostages’ deaths prompted hundreds of demonstrators to take to the streets in anger.

It also came days after another incident raised questions about Israel’s open-fire rules. After Hamas militants shot at a busy Jerusalem bus stop, an Israeli man who had rushed to confront the attackers was gunned down by an Israeli soldier, even though he had raised his hands, knelt on the ground and flung open his shirt to indicate he wasn’t a threat. The military has launched an investigation.

Critics see a direct link between a long list of shooting deaths of Palestinians – from the killing of 32-year-old autistic man Eyad Hallaq, to the death of Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, and many more over the years – to the incidents that led to the deaths of Israelis.

Most recently, B’Tselem accused the army of carrying out a pair of “illegal executions” after releasing video footage that appeared to show Israeli troops killing two Palestinian men — one who was incapacitated and the second unarmed — during a military raid in the occupied West Bank. Military police are investigating, but rights groups say such incidents rarely lead to punitive measures.

Critics say the hostages incident reflects the military’s conduct toward civilians in Gaza. More than 18,700 Palestinians have been killed since the war began, of whom about two-thirds are said to be women and minors, according to the Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza, which does not differentiate between combatants and civilians.

Avner Gvaryahu, who heads Breaking the Silence, a whistleblower group that documents testimonies of former Israeli soldiers, said soldier accounts from previous military engagements in the Gaza Strip showed that once an area was deemed by the military to be cleared of civilians, they were instructed to “shoot everything that moves.”

“The army said this happened in violation of the rules of engagement. I’m skeptical of that, based on what we know of previous operations in Gaza,” he said. “How many Palestinians were shot at like this?”

The military says it does what it can to protect civilians, but says it faces a complex arena where Hamas embeds itself in densely populated civilian areas. Palestinians on several occasions have said Israeli soldiers opened fire in Gaza as civilians tried to flee to safety.

Kobi Michael, a senior researcher with the Institute for National Security Studies, a Tel Aviv think tank, disputed the comparisons between the hostage deaths to the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank or the killing of the Israeli civilian in Jerusalem. He said each case needed to be seen on its own, rather than as part of a broader trend.

“It shouldn’t have happened but we are in a war and it’s not a sterile environment,” said Michael, who is a former senior official at Israel’s Ministry for Strategic Affairs. “We need to understand the context.”

The killing of Israeli civilians in recent weeks has prompted a reckoning for some Israelis. Nahum Barnea, a leading commentator, wrote in Yediot Ahronot that the hostage incident was a crime and could not be passed over “as if it were nothing.”

Ben Caspit, writing in the daily Maariv, said the rise of Israel’s far-right has helped create an environment that makes it easier for forces to open fire.

He also highlighted a common sentiment among Israel’s hard-line right wing that there are no noncombatants in Gaza. That has fueled concerns among critics that Israeli forces are not being discriminate in their combat.

“In recent years our finger has become too light on the trigger. The recent events have made it even lighter,” he wrote. “There are noncombatants in Gaza, and three of them were killed this weekend by our own soldiers.”

 

So given that Israeli soldiers are ordered to "shoot anything that moves", and given that these types of incidents are almost never punished, I think it's safe to say that killing surrendering civilians is the de facto IDF policy.

Quote

I will watch the video. But the statement here doesn't indicate anything other than unwillingness to deal with internal threats to liberty. 

I wish that were true.

Edited December 20, 2023 by SpookyKitty

[whYNOT]

22 hours ago, AlexL said:

Whose exercise?

The wishers of Israel's extermination, of course! Who did you think?

i.e. Islamists with their western sycophants. 

Incredible; Hamas can proclaim their intended genocide of "Zionists" in its charter for many years, and nobody believed they meant it.

Hamas can commit mass murders and vile acts inside Israel, still they are not believed.

But imagine the IDF disappeared permanently on and after Oct 7, the whole country left defenseless, and would anyone still believe the *entire* Israeli population would not have been slaughtered?

Ah, but it's Israel that is "committing genocide" proclaim the indoctrinated, still.

Edited December 20, 2023 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

The "scholar of genocide" cannot get the simplest cause/effect right:

"...during the 1948 war that led to the creation of the State of Israel ... "

It's on public record, the 1948 creation of Israel ~preceded~ and supposedly justified the combined Arab attack against Israel. War began a few days later. 

The Nakba "catastrophe" when Palestinians were ordered to temporarily flee by the Arab attackers - and- many forced to flee by Israelis before hostilities began - was made all the worse -- the Jewish pigs won!

He might have included that the Arab war was clearly meant to "genocide" the Jews...

"We will throw them into the sea !!", was the published Arab warcry. Not a "textbook case of" intended "genocide"?

Where do these "expert" creeps spreading falsehood and bile come from?

 

"Israel’s campaign to displace Gazans—and potentially expel them altogether into Egypt—is yet another chapter in the Nakba, in which an estimated 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes during the 1948 war that led to the creation of the State of Israel. But the assault on Gaza can also be understood in other terms: as a textbook case of genocide..."

Edited December 20, 2023 by whYNOT

[AlexL]

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

[...]

@whYNOT, have you notices that @SpookyKitty argues for the always righteous Palestine and against the “genocidal” Israel in the exactly same way as you argued for the always righteous putinist Russia and against the “Nazi” Ukraine? That is by presenting the Palestinian narrative and the associated lies and never proving anything?

Edited December 20, 2023 by AlexL