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On 8/28/2019 at 3:27 PM, Eiuol said:

 

If someone immigrates, either the common political values of that old country aren't their views, or they don't care about politics. It would be like saying the average person from China or Vietnam who immigrates to the US is going to have a habit to look for things leaning towards communism. WhyNot seems to imagine the US as a homogenous political culture such that socialism and any vaguely left-leaning policy is mainly driven by immigrants from foreign countries. Believe it or not, political changes in the are driven by citizens, not immigrants.

"Mainly driven" I did not imply or say. I specified that incoming great and almost limitless numbers ~could~ tilt the political landscape of a nation, especially one that's delicately poised. I'd make the bet that in a random sampling, 75% of those entering from Africa would lean Left, and many of those, Socialist. This is probably more a matter for many, of seeing what appears most pragmatic for their short term financial gains, than necessarily being imbued by socialist ideology back at home. By political ideologues, as you know, who make a ton of promises they can't keep to take power.

The very fact that a government must NOT have the power to discriminate by ideology and nationality** (and race) of its legal immigrants, is the precise reason that open borders is a bad idea, now and foreseeably. Imagine the immigration process as 'a filter' which slows and moderates large numbers, but eventually rewards those who have the best of possible reasons for applying, who most perceive that value, and show themselves most determined. One cannot know or be bothered about who is going to turn out to be 'the best' citizens, especially not how their future children will turn out, but one can take for granted that among them there will be takers and fakers with the 'makers'. From abroad, we all see images of the wealth that (e.g.) the USA represents - but it's advisable to not romanticize *every* one of the immigrants as wanting to effortfully partake in the American dream to "breathe free" - some predators, who knows whom, again, just see wealth as easy, criminal pickings - or others, a wealth that will somehow automatically be shared with them, by simply getting there. 

**A temporary block on immigrants whose country e.g. supports and disseminates terrorism looks quite rational. A block which should be judicially and humanely lifted for individuals who wish to escape repression.

 

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On 8/27/2019 at 4:00 AM, Doug Morris said:

Should we be suspicious of people who held gold when it was illegal?

Long ago I smoked a marijuana cigarette to see what all the fuss was about.  Does this make me likely to violate rights?

The reason we have so many people entering the country illegally is that we have arbitrary, unjust laws limiting how many people can enter from what country.  Racism played a role in motivating such laws.

There's a good reason for undocumented migrants to be viewed with a little suspicion by other citizens. One doesn't know who specifically could potentially be a danger to society, and the majority plainly are not. But it only takes one. About 8 years ago my friends' teenaged son was shot several times while in his car late one night in a quiet LA suburb. While that may happen anywhere by anyone (particularly in SA, which his parents had left soon after his birth, ironically, to get away from intensifying crime, here) - and this was mystifying to the police since there was no motive apparent. A year or two later they caught the shooter and attached many other random shootings and a few murders to him. It would seem, I gather, he was insane and held a grudge against "privileged Anglos". If it had not been that he was undocumented, he certainly could not have escaped for so long and anyway might have been rejected on psychological grounds. He was an illegal Mexican migrant. Every citizen builds up a record, a "paper trail", going way back with records where he was born, name, addresses, schooling, work, licenses, photos, I.D. - etc. And one also inevitably gains a "human record" of parents, acquaintances etc, who personally knew him. Which will eventually be how he's tracked down and arrested. This man had none, a blank, so could get away from the authorities for so long and continue his patternless assaults and knew he could. It only takes one such person to create suspicion and unease among a populace to any apparent strangers or aliens, at times manifesting itself racially. (Their son survived, after many ops and has gradually learned to walk).

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5 hours ago, whYNOT said:

"Mainly driven" I did not imply or say.

You failed to understand my post. You didn't say mainly driven, but you did seem to say that by nature of being immigrants they would drive some change of the political landscape. I'm saying it's stupid to think that immigrants have some kind of special impact on the shaping of political culture. If an immigrant votes left, it's for the same reason as anyone else - they've been persuaded. Then you find it incredulous that they have been "easily persuaded", as if no one can honestly believe in any left-leaning politics unless they have been hoodwinked. So course, the next thought you would have is that they were already that way before they got here. Which is also stupid, because the countries they are coming from aren't even socialist or even overwhelmingly leftist. Left-leaning centrists, maybe.

Is there a reason you haven't immigrated to the US? I'm asking because I want to get some idea of where you're coming from.

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21 hours ago, Eiuol said:

You failed to understand my post. You didn't say mainly driven, but you did seem to say that by nature of being immigrants they would drive some change of the political landscape. I'm saying it's stupid to think that immigrants have some kind of special impact on the shaping of political culture. If an immigrant votes left, it's for the same reason as anyone else - they've been persuaded. Then you find it incredulous that they have been "easily persuaded", as if no one can honestly believe in any left-leaning politics unless they have been hoodwinked. So course, the next thought you would have is that they were already that way before they got here. Which is also stupid, because the countries they are coming from aren't even socialist or even overwhelmingly leftist. Left-leaning centrists, maybe.

Is there a reason you haven't immigrated to the US? I'm asking because I want to get some idea of where you're coming from.

My argument simplified has been that those who really see *the value* - above the wealth - of living in a free and just nation, will not be dissuaded by arguments from opposing ideologies they find there. Others, who only see the wealth, can be and will be. Therefore, "Human nature" is why many will seek the riches of a (free-er) country simply because it looks rich and ~appears~ to offer an easy road to riches.. But we can't know motives, who is what, and who could later learn and change, so a government must treat them equally with equal immigration policies. Human nature, with its flaws and ignorance and evasions, is a reality. This means that merely because someone wants to get into a good and just country doesn't automatically lend them rationality and virtues. And it does not entitle any of those, nor those more fully rational either, to migrate through "open borders" (or cross illegally through controlled ones). Do you not think it is important to distinguish "man's nature" (and his volitional, rational consciousness) from "human" nature, so not to settle into rationalism or intrinsicism?

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I'm saying it's stupid to say that immigrants will vote for what they are "used to". If they vote, they have joined American politics, and doing it the American way, by the same American sort of politics that have existed since the beginning. If you think most immigrants go to the US because they think it's an easy road to riches, you're just mistaken. I have no reason to think that immigrants would think that way. And if they did think that way, they wouldn't even stomach the effort necessary to even physically get here. Your talk of human nature is actually gross oversimplification of human psychology (itself a type of rationalism).

Why haven't you immigrated to the US? I have no ulterior motive in asking. I'm trying to think of this in the perspective of you being an immigrant, because that hypothetical applies directly to you. This even relates to the first post because it really looks like you have a lack of empathy or understanding of immigration. 
 

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4 hours ago, Eiuol said:

 

I'm saying it's stupid to say that immigrants will vote for what they are "used to". If they vote, they have joined American politics, and doing it the American way, by the same American sort of politics that have existed since the beginning. If you think most immigrants go to the US because they think it's an easy road to riches, you're just mistaken. I have no reason to think that immigrants would think that way. And if they did think that way, they wouldn't even stomach the effort necessary to even physically get here. Your talk of human nature is actually gross oversimplification of human psychology (itself a type of rationalism).

Why haven't you immigrated to the US? I have no ulterior motive in asking. I'm trying to think of this in the perspective of you being an immigrant, because that hypothetical applies directly to you. This even relates to the first post because it really looks like you have a lack of empathy or understanding of immigration. 
 

That "same sort of American politics" has in the last 5 years been turning much more Left-Socialist than any time in living memory. It has accelerated with, not "caused by", your latest Administration. That US Left turn has to be worrying (anyway, it alarms me). 

I had said that old habits die hard. I mean the greater proportion of people, not the exceptions. If it weren't clearly so, in reality, that people tend to stay with their initial, basic ideologies, we'd have many more volitionists and far fewer determinists. (And more Objectivists). That's evidently not so. 

According to your view, it is only if I had the need to want to emigrate there, that I would have "empathy and understanding" for those who do or tried to? Check those premises. You obviously can't know my experiences of living and immigrating in some countries (and what it is like being physically among African refugees more than once). Nor, of those close who moved to the US . If you haven't inferred anything from my thoughts, allow me the capability of imagining what it is like.

I have placed effort into, hopefully, a principled, rational, just and benevolent, and sped-up, immigration policy, one not based on duty and "we owe", but for the overall good. Again I need point out, it's not just an isolated, American issue. There exists confusion and conflict, internationally, about im/migration that will become a crisis soon.

What you confirm for me is what was already made clear by the Left (anywhere): that "open borders" equates with empathy - If one doesn't loudly proclaim the good of open borders, one doesn't feel for "victims"; one doesn't want immigrants; one is obviously xenophobic; so one must feel guilt. That emotional tactic is how the Left have made gains of power over people's minds.

Can it be presumed that the same advocates of this border policy will  be consistently principled, and open their private homes to any passers-by in need of shelter (and without checking them out first)? Not noticeably. 

Fine emotion ('feel-good') is great - by one's own values and doings - not, at others' expense. A sacrifice of their values, emotional, spiritual, material. 

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1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

According to your view, it is only if I had the need to want to emigrate there, that I would have "empathy and understanding" for those who do or tried to?

So tell me about it, why don't you immigrate here and leave Africa? There's nothing wrong with talking about direct personal experiences sometimes. I know it might sound like it, but I'm not trying to make a veiled insult. I'm actually wondering. It doesn't mean that only by wanting to immigrate would you understand; if you talk about why you don't want to immigrate, we can compare that with people who want to.

(By the way, you are not talking about the same sense of empathy as me. I was talking about ability to put yourself in the place of another and from there imagine the possible ways people can think, good or bad. The whole bit by the way where you said according to me, that's an example of not empathizing because I don't know how you got that from me asking a question. Empathy has a lot to do with coming up with a lot of reasonable explanations and possible reasons people would act a certain way.)


 

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On 8/31/2019 at 11:05 AM, whYNOT said:

If it had not been that he was undocumented, he certainly could not have escaped for so long and anyway might have been rejected on psychological grounds.

One possible approach here would be to let everybody in, but document them.

On the other hand, a person can start out with an extensive paper trail and human record and then drop off the grid and become untraceable.

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On 9/2/2019 at 4:42 AM, Eiuol said:

 

(By the way, you are not talking about the same sense of empathy as me. I was talking about ability to put yourself in the place of another and from there imagine the possible ways people can think, good or bad. The whole bit by the way where you said according to me, that's an example of not empathizing because I don't know how you got that from me asking a question. Empathy has a lot to do with coming up with a lot of reasonable explanations and possible reasons people would act a certain way.)


 

Yes. My preferred use of empathy, 'putting oneself in another's place', to work out from their words/acts, their premises and processes, so to completely understand their ideas (e.g. determinism, collectivism etc.). In short: "What would it BE like, to believe ...xyz? As this person does." Invaluable as a tool and it looks to me Rand showed herself as a master 'empathist' to be able to arrive at her many insights.

"Empathy: The power of projecting one's personality into (and so fully comprehending) the object of contemplation". C.O.D

Into "Objects" - not only into humans , which is interesting for those who've employed it as such, to also understand inner workings of machinery or biological processes..

Thats a pretty archaic definition, unfortunately it's been lost, of late - empathy has become a synonym for "compassion", and how I meant it.

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I should be more careful with the word empathy, I realize that there are two different concepts both called empathy. One is compassion, the other is imagining what others think. 

But do you have anything to say about why you don't want to immigrate to America? If you want to talk about immigration, let's talk about it. Concretize it. What makes would-be immigrants different than you? What makes them the same? Is there something about immigration I'm not considering that maybe you would (because I'm not in a position where immigration matters, I don't want to live anywhere except America in the first place).

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9 hours ago, Eiuol said:

I should be more careful with the word empathy, I realize that there are two different concepts both called empathy. One is compassion, the other is imagining what others think. 

But do you have anything to say about why you don't want to immigrate to America? If you want to talk about immigration, let's talk about it. Concretize it. What makes would-be immigrants different than you? What makes them the same? Is there something about immigration I'm not considering that maybe you would (because I'm not in a position where immigration matters, I don't want to live anywhere except America in the first place).

There's nothing to be careful about. I have heard both words used interchangeably for so long, there's no doubt that empathy equals compassion, to most everyone. Words shift over time, in connotation and denotation, it's not my imagining.

I don't know why you insist on me giving my personalized, concretized experiences. They couldn't change the concept of immigration. Will the mental exercise tell me anything I can't imagine? I've said that I've seen close what refugees go through, so this is not pie in the sky theory for me. I could have and had the opportunity to emigrate to a few places including the US. I considered them, on and off, and I didn't. There is still some value and values I find and have in being here. I'll stay unless the values become lesser. In which case I might go to the USA (through your open borders, of course...

That is THE topic - "open borders", I need to remind you. Not immigration, the straw man. 

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4 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

That is THE topic - "open borders", I need to remind you. Not immigration, the straw man. 

No... It never was, you just were talking to yourself about open borders.

12 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

I don't know why you insist on me giving my personalized, concretized experiences.

I'm interested about you. 

12 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Will the mental exercise tell me anything I can't imagine?

Maybe?

14 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

to most everyone

I see both concepts used in my life. 

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On 9/4/2019 at 4:02 AM, Doug Morris said:

One possible approach here would be to let everybody in, but document them.

On the other hand, a person can start out with an extensive paper trail and human record and then drop off the grid and become untraceable.

Ah yes, I am all for the freedom of choice to "drop off the grid", and to minimize one's (digitized) "paper" trail. I find the psychological incursion - by way of a mountain of licenses, ID, documents, proof of residence, etc.etc. - into one's privacy and free movement, one of those distasteful aspects of modern life. We realize it's for one's own and others' safety and security; but societies have become less-free as a result. (A good place to enter the brilliant "They who would give up a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither and will lose both".)

It's a fine distinction, but the individual who is already a citizen, who immigrated through the proper channels, must have the identical, unlimited freedom of movement as all others - within that country. Once he's had all the checks done, initially, he then has his freedom (apart from onto private property). If conversely he entered illegally, he is in actuality totally anonymous, a "blank" person with a blank past, whose freedom of movement is not necessarily a good. Other citizens could well be distrusting and fearful of many such people.

IOW, The first official check into an applying immigrant's background should, in theory, be his last - if he remains a decent citizen. Which emphasizes the absolute necessity of that immigration check.

 

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43 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

No... It never was, you just were talking to yourself about open borders.

 

Who is arguing against "immigration"? No one that I've seen.. Nope, it is "open" immigration which is on the table.

Bringing up the job-application analogy again. One has the right to work and to negotiate for employment - one does not have the right to be hired. One's needs and ambitions do not constitute a claim on a prospective employer. The "free will" of the applicant (recalling Yaron's speech) - correctly, that he and his life is not "determined" by any prior elements, like his place of birth and race - does not overcome the free will (and policies) of the employer. 

And certainly not to the extent of walking into the workplace and beginning work without being hired. 

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2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Who is arguing against "immigration"?

You really don't remember what we were talking about? Obviously you didn't say you are against immigration, I was against what you were saying about immigration (and your ignorant statements about immigration - I was trying to fix your false impressions.)

I find it very strange you don't even want to say anything about why you haven't immigrated to the US. I'm going to take it that you don't think it's that great, because you were talking about how many people seem to immigrate to the US because they think it will be easy. I find it weird that you praise the US so much overall, but you seem embarrassed even talk about why you haven't immigrated. This is weird to me, so I'm curious if I'm wrong or right.

 

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2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

You really don't remember what we were talking about? Obviously you didn't say you are against immigration, I was against what you were saying about immigration (and your ignorant statements about immigration - I was trying to fix your false impressions.)

I find it very strange you don't even want to say anything about why you haven't immigrated to the US. I'm going to take it that you don't think it's that great, because you are talking about how many people seem to immigrate to the US because they think it will be easy. I find it weird that you praise the US so much overall, but you seem embarrassed even talk about why you haven't immigrated. This is weird to me, so I'm curious if I'm wrong or right.

 

The issue is of a far bigger scope than you seemingly wish to explore. The constant question: How many can any Western nation 'afford' to take in and how quickly? Assuming what appears to be potentially almost unlimited numbers, many of whom might not assimilate easily, at which stage could the character and resources of the nation be compromised - i.e. sacrificed? I'm mentioning European nations first in order of likelihood. Open and ongoing immigration from North Africa and the ME spells future troubles for the EU.

The arguments given for open immigration are nearly always, under the surface, appeals to emotion. And to past history and self-image and symbolism. For instance, the main player on migrants, Angela Merkel, has confided that news pictures she envisaged of German police very likely detaining and struggling to contain incoming migrants at the border, upset her greatly. The emotional association is clear, affecting many Germans (understandably). Therefore, the deaths of millions by Nazi Germany - is to be compensated and supposedly atoned for, by all Europeans in admitting other ethnicities in large numbers. Sacrifice replaced by self-sacrifice, weakening and making gradually less charitable and benevolent the people and countries involved. 

And why? Present Germany and its people had nothing to do with the past ("inherited" - a mystical notion). But in their unearned guilt, they still feel the need for altruism in another form. 

Also it must have occurred to you, re: the last debate, that open immigration would be a precondition of globalists' ambitions, with open borders everywhere. Egalitarianism applied to entire nations. 

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19 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Dude, stop talking to me about open immigration, I don't even support open immigration.

Finally. Was that so hard? All your objections, then, were gratuitous. What I've gotten accustomed to from you in four different threads.

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42 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

your xenophobia.

 

 

Yup, as expected up comes the "x" word and political correctness. Are you so soon going back on your: "I don't even support open immigration"?

You are against open immigration, how come YOU are not "xenophobic", but I am?

 

 

 

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It's the level of ignorance. At some point, it becomes more than ignorance, it becomes something more. I gave a lot of patience, explaining how you gave bad reasoning, how bad reasoning is a similar reason why people call Trump racist. You engaged that a little bit, but kept bringing up open immigration (a tangent by you, fine, but I didn't engage in that part). You appealed to common sense, but I disputed that is not actually making any sense. By now you seem afraid of even being an immigrant yourself. I've asked about your own experiences so I could treat you as a person who has actual concerns here. But it seems like that you had a hard time believing that I didn't have a motive to "win" the argument. 

 

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2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

It's the level of ignorance. At some point, it becomes more than ignorance, it becomes something more. I gave a lot of patience, explaining how you gave bad reasoning, how bad reasoning is a similar reason why people call Trump racist. You engaged that a little bit, but kept bringing up open immigration (a tangent by you, fine, but I didn't engage in that part). You appealed to common sense, but I disputed that is not actually making any sense. By now you seem afraid of even being an immigrant yourself. I've asked about your own experiences so I could treat you as a person who has actual concerns here. But it seems like that you had a hard time believing that I didn't have a motive to "win" the argument. 

 

My reasoning comes direct from real things and a fair understanding of the nature of consciousness, where's the source of yours? "Afraid" of being an immigrant, is the most ridiculous piece of psychologizing. I don't feel you have a particular need to know more than I said , it's irrelevant here, and some people would leave it at that. Your probable point? If I'm not emigrating there, I can't know what it's like, or feels like? Nonsense, for that we have concepts, one doesn't have to do everything (or know it all) to conceptualize from experiences, information and observations. For one, I will guarantee I've read more American novels than many Americans. 

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1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

Afraid" of being an immigrant, is the most ridiculous piece of psychologizing.

It is ridiculous, but it is my best estimate. Psychologizing would be saying what you think. I asked you, and you won't tell me, so like with anyone else, I make my best estimate. Perhaps it's too difficult, perhaps as you said old habits die hard (so you are stuck in an apartheid mindset) and adapting would be hard for you, or that you've been denied entry so it feels better to suggest that the immigrants who get in have expectations of it being easy, or you never sought entry because you would then have had to associate yourself with your views on immigrants. Who knows. 

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

If I'm not emigrating there, I can't know what it's like, or feels like?

I told you it would expand what we are talking about. It wasn't about you, stop thinking it was. I was being selfish, I wanted to know why you haven't immigrated so I could understand where you were coming from.

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

For one, I will guarantee I've read more American novels than many Americans. 

Don't bother making claims about how much you love America if you don't even want to become American.

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18 hours ago, Eiuol said:

It is ridiculous, but it is my best estimate. Psychologizing would be saying what you think. I asked you, and you won't tell me, so like with anyone else, I make my best estimate. Perhaps it's too difficult, perhaps as you said old habits die hard (so you are stuck in an apartheid mindset) and adapting would be hard for you, or that you've been denied entry so it feels better to suggest that the immigrants who get in have expectations of it being easy, or you never sought entry because you would then have had to associate yourself with your views on immigrants. Who knows. 

I told you it would expand what we are talking about. It wasn't about you, stop thinking it was. I was being selfish, I wanted to know why you haven't immigrated so I could understand where you were coming from.

Don't bother making claims about how much you love America if you don't even want to become American.

Apartheid mindset, denied entry, had to associate myself with immigrants, xenophobia - how can I love America if I don't want ...etc.

If this were not hilariously funny mind-reading, I'd have cause to feel insulted.

Where do you get off, being this condescending?

All your off-target conjecture I doubt you could have come up with alone. I quite suspect you needed input from others.

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