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Easy Truth

C & C: Coronavirus #4

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14 hours ago, EC said:

The flu doesn't cause a spike that can overwhelm health care systems like Covid-19 does due to it being novel with no immunity or vaccine's for it. The actual problem is worldwide socialized medicine that can't/couldn't properly prepare or real-time pivot during such a sudden and novel disease outbreak.

Yes, I appreciate that the "spike" in this pandemic, as distinct from the 'normal' flu case-and-mortality rate's more even distribution annually, spreading across geographical zones according to temperatures (as a major contributor), is unprecedented. This contingency is for what, surely, institutions like the CDC design predictive models. My strong impression is that all countries were caught hopping and then each played catch-up. The tactics, strategies, policies, media messages, political responses, inroads in individual freedoms - the thinking - ultimately the contemporary philosophy, itself - have been at fault. I agree that such a crisis reveals the flaws of socialized medicine - but the self-destructive (to my view) response to the coronavirus has deeper causal roots.   

Edited by whYNOT

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The "war we are in", and "the enemy which must be defeated" has been commonly touted. While the metaphor may be understandable in coaxing/pressuring, but finally *coercing* peoples to be aware, take precautionary actions and modify behaviors (which they should for each one's own good, let alone everyone else's ) - and tacitly, to expect many subsequent 'casualties of war'- it is also specious. The "enemy" is perceived as you or I, or the nearest individual to us, stranger or friend, who speaks to us or coughs. Everybody perceives it is a human carrier (seen, potential, possible, or imaginary) and the objects he/she has touched, which is the real enemy, over and above the virus. For all the (wishful) narratives, an avalanche of which anyone does see daily on social and mainstream media, that "We are in this together, responsible for each other" - etc. the speakers must know they are self-deceiving. Newly learned behaviors and attitudes to others, is not easily re-learned, and already is driving humans apart: fear and distrust of the 'other' are at center and it's improbable that any minimal amount of previous, general good will to others will return soon, afterwards. As aside from what and whom most parents are teaching their kids also to morbidly and permanently fear. Here's one psychological aspect only of "the cure being worse than the disease".

When this surreal nightmare is finally over, done and dusted, and this virus "defeated" and we survey the battlefield and -all- our losses of every kind, we are going to ask - What the hell was that about?!

Was it worth it?

Historians will write this episode up as a Pyrrhic victory.

Edited by whYNOT

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1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

Was it worth it?

Worth it to whom?

To the president of the country that did not have on his resume "oversaw the deaths of 1 million or more citizens", yes, it is worth it. That is the motivation driving it ultimately.

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1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

Worth it to whom?

To the president of the country that did not have on his resume "oversaw the deaths of 1 million or more citizens", yes, it is worth it. That is the motivation driving it ultimately.

I don't see this purely in terms of the world's leaders, presidents, prime ministers and so on. I will say that I think every "leader" today of all political bents, would do almost the same as what all the others do. The cost of making an end to their careers - - and - the devastating personal and public load of losing unpredictable numbers of lives of their citizens - is too great, to buck the universal trend, completely. Every politician I've ever seen wants to leave "his legacy" in the history books. Therefore, I fault today's philosophy and ethics, primarily -- and that philosophy is indeed cynical. I surmise that your president, at the very least, is attempting to get the US back on track and operating asap. At the cost, he knows, of being lambasted (impeached?) for not taking the virus seriously enough, for rushing things, which anyone can predict the opposition will do. He comprehends simply that men/women need activity, productivity and income to take pride in and so, a good economy. For that alone I totally agree with him. He is treading a middle line on the pandemic between media-driven overwhelming alarmism, and the practical good for all in the nation , it seems to me; an uncomfortable position.

Is "it worth it" and to whom? Endless streams of personal and private agonies like the strap line on TV news I saw just now, a question from an anonymous public member, that I only spotted the ending of "...when I don't know where my next penny is coming from?" That's whom it matters to. Man's life as "man".

Edited by whYNOT

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18 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

This won't sway the majority.

I know that's so. But you don't think that every person knows this implicitly? He doesn't earn, he doesn't survive, he doesn't survive he cannot hold onto his values and thrive "proper to man". I think so. If it is explicitly evaded, is because most people sense the logical outcome would be to be "selfish" about their life. Given the morality they've been imbued with, an unbearable notion.

Edited by whYNOT

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8 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

He doesn't earn, he doesn't survive,

The problem is the subjectivity around the concept "earn" or "deserve" and "worth". Currently, a large number of people don't deserve to die. This (large) number is more of a consensus that fact (threshold) of reality.

What is it worth to me? Depends if I get it and can't breath for one thing. But I personally don't think it, I think I will get it and have no symptoms. It is just "a thought" that overwhelms my other thoughts and therefore my emotions. Others may think, "oh shit, I better avoid it, it will definitely kill me". There is a very different reaction and different things are worth it to them.

Thoughts about the future are individual and they affect our assessment of what is worth it or not.

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1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

The problem is the subjectivity around the concept "earn" or "deserve" and "worth". Currently, a large number of people don't deserve to die. This (large) number is more of a consensus that fact (threshold) of reality.

What is it worth to me? Depends if I get it and can't breath for one thing. But I personally don't think it, I think I will get it and have no symptoms. It is just "a thought" that overwhelms my other thoughts and therefore my emotions. Others may think, "oh shit, I better avoid it, it will definitely kill me". There is a very different reaction and different things are worth it to them.

Thoughts about the future are individual and they affect our assessment of what is worth it or not.

"Thoughts about the future are individual..." Yes, at the individual level, what does one do or think about the risk of death? 

And yes, a great amount of subjectivity (and subjective and intrinsic value) is doing the rounds now - an epidemic too, one might say. "Deserve to die" needs an answer. I think can be inferred lately more of the primacy of consciousness meme "nobody must die, not ever!" Science/tech -must- provide us everlasting lives - else the government... 

For one's own life, e.g. mine, I am willing to take the risk like all the risks I've taken before (plus being more vigilant than before) in order to keep my freedom of action; what happens, happens, so be it. For anyone close to me, the worry about them if they contracted the disease (or the pain if they died from it) would be a far less easy prospect to consider. 

Going on to everyone else, those numbers who are dying and those dead, and the individuals who mourn them: I don't know what to say. Cold comfort to say that we're all going to die, that his mortality is what is known to the rational animal, therefore for all mankind. (Pneumonia is a hard way to go, imagine the sensation of drowning, but there are many other torments humans suffer).

To return to keeping perspective and proportion. i.e. Comparisons to the other "commonly normal" flu virus which ends for a minority of unfortunates the same way as coronavirus..  

Millions caught it, as did you (I suppose), and me more than once.  Suffered for a while with fever and went on with things.

1. we survived while casually being aware that others do not. We went to no great lengths to avoid the hazard, and specifically there were no stringent acts of govt. to combat the flu.. 

2. we hardly cared for a moment, WHOM, which individual, we caught it from. In public and sometimes at home from a child, maybe. "Whom" seemed irrelevant to most, I think, while one tried to avoid passing it on.

3. the flu was vaccinated against (except many still die of it).

I suggest it is "the perception" (hello, media) which affects billions of people's emotions and governments' actions. Humans have increasingly reduced attention span - not to add is often concrete-bound. The rapidity of the spread, rather higher mortality (beginning to settle at one-plus per cent, I gather), the visibility of greater numbers of infection over a much shorter time frame in places around the world, and not least,  the intimately personal nature of "catching it" from SOMEONE,  a bad person who infects us, Zombie-like, have distorted everyone's thinking.   

Edited by whYNOT

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6 hours ago, whYNOT said:

 My strong impression is that all countries were caught hopping and then each played catch-up. The tactics, strategies, policies, media messages, political responses, inroads in individual freedoms - the thinking - ultimately the contemporary philosophy, itself - have been at fault. I agree that such a crisis reveals the flaws of socialized medicine - but the self-destructive (to my view) response to the coronavirus has deeper causal roots.   

No, I agree. I was just using "socialized medicine" as a catch-all for all these causes and ways of thinking since it's the most perceptual end result of them.

Edited by EC

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4 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

Worth it to whom?

To the president of the country that did not have on his resume "oversaw the deaths of 1 million or more citizens", yes, it is worth it. That is the motivation driving it ultimately.

Besides this being a rather sudden onslaught from a completely new disease, why is this supposedly so metaphysically worse when many diseases cause deaths at about the same order of magnitude, such as the flu?

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17 minutes ago, EC said:

Besides this being a rather sudden onslaught from a completely new disease, why is this supposedly so metaphysically worse when many diseases cause deaths at about the same order of magnitude, such as the flu?

Value is determined by the valuer. There is no better or worse metaphysically speaking. The universe does not care about more or less dead.

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