Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[human_murda]

41 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Oh sure. Then we all (excepting the indigenous people) must all return to the places we came from.

First proving who and what "indigenous people" in pre-history and later times actually are today, after their nomadic wanderings, settling here and there, slave trade, early empires and their wars of conquest and expulsion - and so on.

Infinite regress? Everybody finishes up in Southern Africa. Happy?

Who is talking about returning people to their ancestral homelands? Not me. Whatever migration there was, already happened (and I believe everyone has a right to migrate anywhere, as long as the land/house is properly bought/leased).

The only minor issue is regarding some claims that Israelis stole houses from Palestinians (if proven, they must be kicked out from those homes). I don't know why you're even bringing this up (I never mentioned it).

Edited October 23, 2023 by human_murda

[Eiuol]

1 hour ago, human_murda said:

Who is talking about returning people to their ancestral homelands? Not me. Whatever migration there was, already happened (and I believe everyone has a right to migrate anywhere, as long as the land/house is properly bought/leased).

The only minor issue is regarding some claims that Israelis stole houses from Palestinians (if proven, they must be kicked out from those homes). I don't know why you're even bringing this up (I never mentioned it).

It's weird when people take "Israel should be able to defend itself" to mean that "Israel is justified in doing anything it wants in retaliation, and is justified in doing everything it has ever done". Palestine is not a nation. Palestine has no singular government. Palestine has no unified message. Indeed, Hamas is evil, and it should be obliterated by any means necessary, but it doesn't follow that therefore anyone near Hamas geographically needs to be under police control without even an apparent pathway to be allowed to be left alone. In other words, those means are not necessary. 

It's funny that he brought up "returning people to their ancestral homeland" to suggest that would be absurd, collectivistic, or stupid to argue in favor of, when the founding of Israel was about returning people to their ancestral homeland. Part of the whole issue surrounding the conflict is that this still needs to be resolved, it's not as if Israel was founded 1000 years ago.

[whYNOT]

4 hours ago, human_murda said:

Who is talking about returning people to their ancestral homelands? Not me. Whatever migration there was, already happened (and I believe everyone has a right to migrate anywhere, as long as the land/house is properly bought/leased).

The only minor issue is regarding some claims that Israelis stole houses from Palestinians (if proven, they must be kicked out from those homes). I don't know why you're even bringing this up (I never mentioned it).

The "Nakba". Also, the "right of return". These are presented as purported causes of the continuous Islamist-"Zionist" strife.

I'm saying that masses of people can end up on the wrong side of historical events, like a major war, and get displaced, and worse. The huge Ottoman empire was broken up and restructured into new borders (not too well) by the winning British and their allies - and to cut the story short, from some of it they formed e.g. Jordan, and they allocated another small portion of this land to Arabs, a portion to arriving Jews, split about 50-50. The latter accepted, the former denounced the plan. Inside the Jewish land were many Arab villages to complicate matters. The countries of the Arab League attacked the new state, in 1948, many Arab homeowners fled, many were ordered to flee by the Arab army, to return after the Zionists had been driven out - but instead they lost the war and in the process some more were thrown out of their homes by the winning Jews. The total of Arabs who left voluntarily and didn't come back and were forced out approximates 700, 000, and is "the Catastrophe" - Nakba - blamed entirely in Muslim propaganda on the Jews/Israelis, but due to Arab responses largely.

Those who didn't leave were the forefathers of the present Arab-Israeli citizens.

So the Palestinians suffered doubly because of a. the defeat of the Turks and b. the defeat of the Arab League. And also, their own irrational intransigence regarding Jews. If they had not overtly hated Zionists but agreed to live side by side, the majority could well have kept their properties. 

I think it doubtful any descendants, now in the several millions, owned and still have property documents.

All this is indicative of the self-sacrificial evil of permanently holding a hateful grudge, group to group, and passing it on to their offspring. Many of our parents and forefathers were 'victims' of the wrong time and wrong place, circumstances outside their control. Mostly, they conversely chose to leave it behind and get on with improving their and their families' lives. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by whYNOT

[stansfield123]

20 hours ago, Eiuol said:

 Palestine is not a nation. Palestine has no singular government. Palestine has no unified message.

True, because Palestine is not a thing. It's a dream. It's what radical Arab nationalists and their western backers call the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean. That's why they're marching around in western cities with signs that say "from the river to the sea". They would like that land to become an Islamic caliphate.

It of course isn't an Islamic caliphate. It contains three different political entities: Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.

Israel is a democratic state. The West Bank is not quite an independent political entity, it's run by Fatah but Israel is involved with pacifying it ... but there's no real reason to discuss the West Bank now.

This is about Gaza. The government of Gaza was elected, in 2008(-ish). Then they threw their Fatah political opponents off the roofs of tall buildings, and became the singular, permanent government of Gaza. Not sure why you think Gaza shouldn't be treated accordingly? As the singular political entity it is? The singular political entity which, on October 7, proved that it must stop existing?

Edited October 24, 2023 by stansfield123

[AlexL]

The only thing Israel should not do is to target civilian Gazans.

And this only IF it doesn't contribute to the total defeat of Gaza government (= Hamas + associates). For ex. by demoralizing the civilian population that supports these groups.

(All this is dependent on the fact that Israel is the victim of an aggression).

[Eiuol]

4 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

This is about Gaza. The government of Gaza was elected, in 2008(-ish). Then they threw their Fatah political opponents off the roofs of tall buildings, and became the singular, permanent government of Gaza. Not sure why you think Gaza shouldn't be treated accordingly? As the singular political entity it is? The singular political entity which, on October 7, proved that it must stop existing?

I mean, am I wrong to say that Israel effectively occupies Gaza, albeit more like a siege than a direct military occupation like the West Bank? Even if there is an ostensive "government", Gaza doesn't have political autonomy anyway. That's my point, the only enemy is Hamas, not Gaza, and not Palestine because as you said, Palestine is not really even a thing. 

1 hour ago, AlexL said:

And this only IF it doesn't contribute to the total defeat of Gaza government (= Hamas + associates). For ex. by demoralizing the civilian population that supports these groups.

That makes sense, my concern is that Israel will just continue with military occupations as part of the methods for "total defeat". Occupations like that don't work, and it makes me doubt that the Israeli government cares much about liberty, even a little bit. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Eiuol

[Boydstun]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:55 AM, Boydstun said:

 

Hamas Network of Tunnels Under Gaza

10/24/23 – CNN report:

Quote

 

Intelligence shared with the United States suggests a small cell of Hamas operatives planning the deadly surprise attack on Israel communicated via a network of hardwired phones built into the network of tunnels underneath Gaza over a period of two years, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The phone lines in the tunnels allowed the operatives to communicate with one another in secret and meant they could not be tracked by Israeli intelligence officials, the sources told CNN.

During the two years of planning, the small cell operating in the tunnels used the hardwired phone lines to communicate and plan the operation but stayed dark until it was time to activate and call on hundreds of Hamas fighters to launch the October 7 attack, the sources said.

They avoided using computers or cell phones during the two-year period to evade detection by Israeli or US intelligence, the sources said.

“There wasn’t a lot of discussion and back and forth and coordination outside of the immediate area,” one of the sources said.

The intelligence shared with US officials by Israel reveals how Hamas hid the planning of the operation through old-fashioned counterintelligence measures such as conducting planning meetings in person and staying off digital communications whose signals the Israelis can track in favor of the hardwired phones in the tunnels. It offers new insight into why Israel and the US were caught so flat-footed by the Hamas attack, . . .

 

 

[Easy Truth]

7 hours ago, Eiuol said:

I mean, am I wrong to say that Israel effectively occupies Gaza, albeit more like a siege than a direct military occupation like the West Bank? Even if there is an ostensive "government", Gaza doesn't have political autonomy anyway. That's my point, the only enemy is Hamas, not Gaza, and not Palestine because as you said, Palestine is not really even a thing. 

9 hours ago, AlexL said:

If 1500 people are willing to give up their lives for it, by default, Palestine must be a "thing". Also, killing 1900 Israelis does justify the word genocide on the part of Hamas. 

That attack on Israel was a heinous act that I had thought either mentally ill people or extremely desperate people could do. I am assuming what I have heard and seen is true. But it seems like some mastermind planned it. What I am afraid of is there are such horrible people out there in charge and the West is vulnerable. As far as I know, Hamas has not threatened the US as of yet, but I hope we are not creating that situation.

The other realization is that those "horrible people" who are in charge of this "are" Hamas, and perhaps the leadership in Iran. That would mean the population that they control must be too terrified to overthrow them. After all, we see what they are capable of.

7 hours ago, Eiuol said:

That makes sense, my concern is that Israel will just continue with military occupations as part of the methods for "total defeat". Occupations like that don't work, and it makes me doubt that the Israeli government cares much about liberty, even a little bit. 

Yes, which implies that the mastermind wanted this state of affairs. I suspect that the hope is that Hamas will be destroyed as ISIS was. I don't know how similar that is because Hamas was a resistance movement that was voted for ... (Democratically?). 

Bottom line shouldn't we consider the aspirations of Palestinians as a "real" thing for our own survival? Because we can't wipe them all out and rid the world of them.

[AlexL]

10 hours ago, Eiuol said:

11 hours ago, AlexL said:

And this only IF it doesn't contribute to the total defeat of Gaza government (= Hamas + associates). For ex. by demoralizing the civilian population that supports these groups.

That makes sense, my concern is that Israel will just continue with military occupations as part of the methods for "total defeat". Occupations like that don't work, and it makes me doubt that the Israeli government cares much about liberty, even a little bit. 

By "total defeat" I mean total military defeat. 

After the total military defeat of Germany and Japan, these two countries were also occupied and radical changes were imposed to their political regimes:

• The western occupation of Germany officially ended in May 1949, when the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) was established as a democratic state.
• In Japan, a new Constitution was imposed in 1947, emphasizing liberal democratic practices. The occupation of Japan ended in April 1952.

In both cases the occupation was temporary, and it did work.

As to your "doubts that the Israeli government cares much about liberty" ... I couldn't care less about your doubts.

[Eiuol]

11 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

If 1500 people are willing to give up their lives for it, by default, Palestine must be a "thing". Also, killing 1900 Israelis does justify the word genocide on the part of Hamas. 

It's a thing only in an abstract sense, with nothing concrete about it. I can't point to a leader, there is no qualification for membership, at best it is a vague name for a vaguely defined region. So, because of this, there is no particular target of military occupation, other than indiscriminate military occupation.

11 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

Bottom line shouldn't we consider the aspirations of Palestinians as a "real" thing for our own survival?

But if Palestine is nothing clear cut, we need to consider the aspirations of what we can define clearly. We can clearly define Hamas, or Hezbollah, and other bad actors in the region like Syria or Iran. 

 

9 hours ago, AlexL said:

By "total defeat" I mean total military defeat. 

I know what you meant. But you also said basically, demoralizing civilians that support the terrorism of Hamas, which would mean also ideological defeat. 

9 hours ago, AlexL said:

After the total military defeat of Germany and Japan, these two countries were also occupied and radical changes were imposed to their political regimes:

Some things change the context quite a lot. Germany and Japan were nations with well-defined militaries and borders, where occupation is aimed at the government specifically. It isn't occupation of the people, to the extent that you aren't permitting the government to violate the rights of those people. I might be wrong about this but I don't believe that the US ever had a border checkpoint and asked for your papers wherever you went. I should have said that kind of occupation doesn't work. Why do you think the military occupation in West Germany ended in less than five years, but the Soviet military occupation of East Germany basically lasted until 1989? The methods of occupation after World War II here were quite different. 

9 hours ago, AlexL said:

As to your "doubts that the Israeli government cares much about liberty" ... I couldn't care less about your doubts.

Your post is literally addressing doubts that I have, apparently the whole reason you are talking to me is to persuade me of something. The reason I'm saying what I'm saying is that as evil as Hamas is, it looks like the only intent of Israel is to stop violence by means of suspending liberties. One way for Israel to get more support is to be clearly pro-liberty. 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Eiuol

[stansfield123]

20 hours ago, Eiuol said:

I mean, am I wrong to say that Israel effectively occupies Gaza

Yes, you're wrong to say that. Israel withdrew from Gaza 18 or so years ago. They dismantled all the contested settlements around Gaza, they built a fence between themselves and Gaza, and from that point on they only ever attacked Gaza in response to attacks targeting Israeli civilians from Gaza. They in no way occupied the territory, or interfered with its internal politics.

The result of that misguided policy was October 7th.

Now, that policy of Gazan independence will stop, obviously. Now, Gaza is under siege. Now, its government will rightfully be wiped out, and everyone associated with that government will rightfully be hunted and killed. We're talking about tens of thousands of people. They will all die. And there will also be collateral casualties.

And the world will whine, and pretend those dead are all victims. They're not. The collaterals are victims, but those tens of thousands who are part of the Hamas led government, or associated with any of the rival terror groups, are not. Their deaths are 100% just.

The only crime, in all of it, is that it didn't happen 18 years ago, when Hamas first took power in Gaza. They should've been wiped out then. Those 1400 innocents who were butchered on October 7th would still be alive, if they had been.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by stansfield123

[Eiuol]

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

They in no way occupied the territory, or interfered with its internal politics.

Not actually occupation per se but as I continued on about, it's more like a siege. I concede that it's not an occupation, my point is that we can't consider Gaza to be outside of Israeli control. If a country has utter control over how people can enter another country, what sort of resources can enter another country, or control movement leaving and entering another country, it might as well be an occupation. The more troubling thing is that the siege is not over a country, just a region. 

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

And the world will whine, and pretend those dead are all victims. They're not. The collaterals are victims, but those tens of thousands who are part of the Hamas led government, or associated with any of the rival terror groups, are not. Their deaths are 100% just.

This is fine, my claim is that there are justified grievances about Israel, and that in the aftermath, I see no reason to expect that Israel will help expand freedom and liberty. Just more of the same if anything. 

[whYNOT]

The smear "genocide" has been egregiously used (and planted by Islamist propagandists--right, this has all been "master-minded") and is now undisputed in certain quarters to be Israel's grand plan.

Together with falsified casualties from Hamas: "6000 dead". Long time Gaza-conflict watchers are familiar with their huge exaggerations of casualties to satisfy the mainstream media's anti-israel bias. Particularly, any dead children.

But also I notice that not one journalist has pointed out that, certainly, the majority of those (inflated) figures and dead bodies on display were Hamas terrorists. Of course - the IDF usually has intel of exactly where many terrorists were and are holed up. All, "innocent civilians"? No, it's against IDF policy and orders, considered unethical.

The tactic by Hamas is, as before, to hide and shield themselves among the crowds. They understand they are the - only - target for eradication. So the "humanitarian" orgs calling for aid and ceasefire are, innocently or not, covering for terrorists.

But all the images from Gaza have focused useful-hatefilled idiots with short attention span, on the retaliations in Gaza, while the atrocities by Hamas blur into the past and can be later disputed.

The intention: first to level the two sides into "moral equivalence", and next step, as one can observe, the Israelis/world Jewry are turned into the world's moral pariahs wishing to 'genocide' those noble martyrs.

The only genocide planned and long verbalized by Hamas is of the "Zionists". They just recently had a taste of it.

I generally like Robby Soave who is the more objective speaker.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

Fiery. More Gazan genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, occupation (!) a concentration camp.

"End the blockade, the siege on Palestine!"

And what pre-justified the blockade (of Gaza) after Hamas came to power? Precisely the results culminating on 7/10. Hamas many times proved itself a lethal danger that could not be allowed arms shipments and intrusions into Israel. Etc.

Visibly, pro-Palestinians out there demonstrate the "soft bigotry of lowered expectations" directed at Palestinians.

"But what are those poor victims of Israel supposed to do?!"

How about stop being "victims", practise courage, begin to assume self-responsibility for your lives and start to thrive? The exemplar of that, Israel, would be only glad to help an honest attempt at Gaza's independent coexistence.

Directed against Israelis, from all over - the harsh bigotry of unreal, impossible expectations.

(Now the appeal to emotion has "2500 children" out of 6000 killed...sure...)

Morgan and his co-host are good here.

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by whYNOT

[Easy Truth]

8 hours ago, Eiuol said:

It's a thing only in an abstract sense, with nothing concrete about it. I can't point to a leader, there is no qualification for membership, at best it is a vague name for a vaguely defined region. So, because of this, there is no particular target of military occupation, other than indiscriminate military occupation.

Well, the contradictions make the situation very complicated. Hamas is a "movement" and is supposedly elected. There is a hierarchy, a leadership, and a charter that negotiators use. It seems that the current Israeli administration has made the case that "Palestinian" is not a real thing. Yet Hamas is believed to exist within the geographical area of Gaza, likely a minority of the people that live there. Ideally. It seems like the objective is that Hamas will be uprooted and not voted for again.

6 hours ago, Eiuol said:

my claim is that there are justified grievances about Israel, and that in the aftermath, I see no reason to expect that Israel will help expand freedom and liberty. Just more of the same if anything. 

Yes, looks like Israel is even more entrenched now. I am wondering what the position of the US should be in all this.

[human_murda]

17 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Visibly, pro-Palestinians out there demonstrate the "soft bigotry of lowered expectations" directed at Palestinians.

"But what are those poor victims of Israel supposed to do?!"

How about stop being "victims", practise courage, begin to assume self-responsibility for your lives and start to thrive? The exemplar of that, Israel, would be only glad to help an honest attempt at Gaza's independent coexistence.

Keep being ignorant of social realities. Power structures and hierarchies exist and humans function within it. You're living in a fantasy land where you think people are, by their own moral failures, responsible for their oppression by others and deserve it.

I don't blame you for your opinions. Not the first time you've echoed White nationalist (or in this case, the adjacent Zionist) talking points. You know what those evil "anti-racist" commies say: "Scratch a liberal and ... ".

Edited October 26, 2023 by human_murda

[whYNOT]

1 hour ago, human_murda said:

Keep being ignorant of social realities. Power structures and hierarchies exist and humans function within it. You're living in a fantasy land where you think people are, by their own/ moral failures, responsible for their oppression by others and deserve it.

I don't blame you for your opinions. Not the first time you've echoed White nationalist (or in this case, the adjacent Zionist) talking points. You know what those evil "anti-racist" commies say: "Scratch a liberal and ... ".

It is not what happens to you, it's what you do about it. Anyone who claims that anyone else, due to an ancestral/personal background of repression, victimization etc. can do little to nothing to help themselves, to value their life and those close, put productive energy into it and make it worth living, probably is a determinist.

Anyone who claims anyone else is incapable - because of their ethnicity - is likely a collectivist-racist.

Did you study Objectivism?

Hearing this is what riles Leftist "racialists" (i.e. for whom one's race explains and often excuses everything) who adore their "victims":

"The soft bigotry of lowered expectations".  Meaning, most of the world doesn't expect high standards from Palestinians. They should begin to. That people cannot cling to victimhood forever.

Jews in Israel successfully rose above their dark and recent past.

"Envy/hatred of the good for being the good". Heard that?

Palestinian individualists could rise also. Few have.

Most prefer to exploit their public and collective image of helpless suffering. Simply, most have been taught to hate Jews and obediently go along .

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by whYNOT

[stansfield123]

22 hours ago, Eiuol said:

If a country has utter control over how people can enter another country

Wrong again. And another terrible mistake by Israel: they gave up control of Gaza's borders. Gaza has a border with Egypt, and it wasn't under Israeli control, it was under Egyptian control. They made the horrible mistake of trusting Egypt to police that border.

That's why Hamas terrorists and Iranian agents were able to travel between Gaza, Iran, Syria and the West Bank at will. That's why Iran was able to train and equip Gaza's government for the October 7th massacre.

This is of course another thing that must, and I believe will, change. After Israel wipes out Gaza's government, and replaces it with one it can control, it must do what you falsely claim they've done for the past 18 years: take full control who goes in and out. Fatah, or some Arab coalition force, is welcome to administer Gaza the way they administer the West Bank, but the border with Egypt must be under direct Israeli control.

 

[human_murda]

27 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Anyone who claims that anyone else, due to an ancestral/personal background of repression, victimization etc. can do little to nothing to help themselves, to value their life and those close, put productive energy into it and make it worth living, probably is a determinist.

And anyone who thinks that repression and victimization have zero negative effects and that every single person can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" no matter what happens to them (even in the middle of a genocide or bombing) is worse than a determinist. You believe in a mystical concept of human will and have no concept of morality.

32 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Hearing this is what riles Leftist "racialists"

Keep riling up leftists and doing absolutely nothing to solve real world problems. That's easy when you pretend that the world doesn't have rules and you can solve everything by sheer human will.

[human_murda]

57 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Jews in Israel successfully rose above their dark and recent past.

"Envy/hatred of the good for being the good". Heard that?

Palestinian individualists could rise also. Few have.

You can keep cosplaying as Übermensch, will yourself out of genocides, own the left and do other White shenanigans. The rest of us will be out here doing our non-Aryan things in the real world.

[human_murda]

@whYNOT is a symptom of disgusting White people who have lived a privileged life, think oppression has no consequences, live in their own Aryan/Übermensch fantasies and think that Jews should have "pulled themselves by their bootstraps" in the middle of the Holocaust and should have simply "chosen not to be victims".

Edited October 26, 2023 by human_murda

[whYNOT]

9 minutes ago, human_murda said:

that Jews should have "pulled themselves by their bootstraps" in the middle of the Holocaust and should have simply "chosen not to be victims".

Not to be victims -- again. i.e. the survivors. Got it?

The Palestinians could - and I know a couple who have - turn from nihilism to self-value.

Now get lost. I don't answer to fascist Jew-haters.

[human_murda]

5 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

I don't answer to fascist Jew-haters.

Dude, you think you're Aryan/Übermensch psychologically. You've been simping for Russia for the past year. I'm pretty sure I know who the fascist is.

6 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Now get lost.

Aww. Did I rile up a rightie?

[Eiuol]

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

After Israel wipes out Gaza's government, and replaces it with one it can control, it must do what you falsely claim they've done for the past 18 years: take full control who goes in and out.

There is a bit of a border with Egypt, but it is largely Israeli control But what you're saying here is even worse, because this is after the destruction of Hamas. I'm saying those kind of responses in the aftermath are bad, they produce more problems, and they are methods that stand against liberty. You should understand that my point is that Israel does not take consistent principled stands in favor of liberty, all it seems have ever done is respond to direct attacks but then completely fail to do anything to stop that from happening again. 

19 minutes ago, human_murda said:

Dude, you think you're Aryan/Übermensch psychologically. You've been simping for Russia for the past year. I'm pretty sure I know who the fascist is.

I guess he feels bad that he didn't rise up against the South African government back during apartheid. 

[tadmjones]

Did SA apartheid end, or just flip ?