Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[Doug Morris]

19 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

... you guys have very confusing buttons ... I keep pressing the wrong ones:)

Can you clarify?

[AlexL]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:50 PM, Eiuol said:

On 11/8/2023 at 10:19 PM, AlexL said:

Then tell me what do you find unclear in what I wrote. Here is it again:

I told you what I thought based on what you wrote. If you think my reasoning went wrong, you have to point out where. What you wrote is perfectly clear, I just think you don't realize the implications of what you're saying. 

What was your reasoning to arrive to what you thought from what I wrote? Start from what I wrote, with exact quotes, and show how you arrived at your conclusions.

IOW, using exact quotes from my original comment, explain the reasoning behind your conclusions.

[stansfield123]

5 hours ago, EC said:

The ideal and the "proper" (practical) are identical when proper rational philosophy is applied.

Cool. But this thread is about war in Gaza. Not a lot of proper rational philosophy is being applied there. They're using their own babies as human shields ( the vid is in Japanese, sorry, it's what I happen to have in my news feed, but you don't need to understand the language to see the fucker with the RPG, walking into the hospital):

 

So what's your point? How exactly are you going to build an ideal society in a world where these people are your neighbors?

Individual rights are nonsense, in this context. Individual rights are the governing principle in a peaceful society, not when dealing with what you see in that video.

Edited November 13, 2023 by stansfield123

[EC]

It's restricted by Google, and I'm on your side completely when it comes to destroying the evil that does these things. The head should be taken off the snake (Iran), which should have happened on 9/12. That said, individual rights can never be negated. To negate rights is to move in the direction of the enemy and the dark ages. It's accepting the evil premises that causes these atrocities and beyond. It's what leads to Nazi Germany, Russia, China, N. Korea and even attacks on American citizens currently in the heart of America. Trust me I'm experiencing it currently and nobody will fully believe me But, that's okay, I'm about to have the full force of the Federal government brought against this group of criminal/domestic terrorists engaging in this. And it will be a test to see if our government and nation is still actually free depending on the action they take to end it.

Edited November 14, 2023 by EC

[Grames]

I wonder if the forum will embed tweets?  Anyway, I deny being an Iranian propagandist of a useful tool of Iranian propagandists.  All Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) need to be put down forever.

https://x.com/samparkersenate/status/1724434234264183240?

[stansfield123]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:58 AM, EC said:

To negate rights is to move in the direction of the enemy and the dark ages.

I disagree completely. Furthermore, I think this is the exact crux of the issue: I love the idea of individual rights, but if a thug refuses to respect my rights, I refuse to respect theirs. You think that makes me and the thug equally immoral. I do not. In fact, I think that my position is the ONLY MORAL ONE.

I think it's you and the thug who are equally immoral. I think someone who rejects your individual rights is immoral, and, if you still insist on treating this person as an entity with full rights: you are just as immoral. You are acting to promote and reward the same exact immorality that he lives by.

The only moral, selfish thing to do is to stand up to people who reject individual rights. To stand up to totalitarian Islam, and to stand up to all of its proponents.

P.S. The IDF, and Israeli intelligence, are actively seeking to collaborate with people in Gaza. They are giving anyone willing to stand against totalitarian Islam a chance not just to live, but to be greatly rewarded for it. That help may include financial reward, positions in a future, non-Islamist government, and even help escaping to a western country, in some cases.

That is ALL anyone should ever do for a hostile population which overwhelmingly supports a totalitarian ideology. Nothing more. Doing anything more would be sacrificing the good, for the evil. Pure altruism. The notion that people who subscribe to the ideology of totalitarian Islam (as most so-called "Palestinians" do, especially those in Gaza) have rights, is insane.

Quote

But, that's okay, I'm about to have the full force of the Federal government brought against this group of criminal/domestic terrorists engaging in this.

You're not though. Because it's not necessary. The Feds can dismantle any criminal/domestic terror group in the US by applying 0.01% of the full force they have at their disposal. Israel can't dismantle Hamas by doing the same. Israel must apply a lot more force than that.

The last time the US government brought its full force to bear was in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or, if nukes are off the table for rational reasons (hopefully it's obvious to all that these rational reasons do exist) ... well then the last time the US brought its full force to a battle, excluding nukes: was in Dresden ... which was actually more destructive than the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

None of those acts were war crimes, btw. And there's also virtually nothing Israel could do in Gaza, that's a war crime. Pretty much everything is a legal target. Hamas has its HQ under the biggest hospital in Gaza. So what could possibly be off limits? What could Israel possibly rule out as a Hamas stronghold?

Edited November 17, 2023 by stansfield123

[EC]

Retaliatory force against those that initiate force is a requirement of the government via the court system only as a principle of justice (or if a government isn't available in an emergency in self defense) or military action (including preemptive strikes) but that isn't a negation of individual rights it's how they are defended and the sole purpose of a moral government. What you can't have is renegade vigilantes conducting "justice" as that is evil and called anarchy.

Here's a good article explaining my position https://newideal.aynrand.org/humanitys-darkest-evil-the-lethal-destructiveness-of-non-objective-law/

While you are at New Ideal check out ARI's series of articles on this conflict also and maybe others on the nature of rights and innocents in wars. My views are identical and not because I read them before I held them but because they are explicit and well-written analysis of Objectivist principles applied correctly to all of these concepts and subjects. I'm not going to attempt to regurgitate well-written articles that share my exact views on this forum while typing on my phone.

Edited November 18, 2023 by EC

[whYNOT]

https://jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby112023.php

[whYNOT]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:27 AM, stansfield123 said:

They're using their own babies as human shields

Their not-so-secret weapon against Israel. The "human shields" element - one that's vehemently denied by Islamic militants and scorned by their virulent supporters, despite all evidence- has lost its impact in the usage. The pattern repeats from several previous go-rounds against Hamas provocations that intentionally invited Israel's retaliation. The "shield" has two parts. 1. Self-protection: placing terrorist positions (etc.) alongside or under civilian infrastructure (knowing that the IDF has been always reluctant to injure/kill innocents, even when that means suffering casualties to their own soldiers' operations - which in itself is a tacit admission by these nihilists of the higher Jewish respect for any lives). More importantly, 2. PR propaganda: Collaterally killed and rescued children (some of it pure theater, posed for the news cameras) make for compelling pictures and headlines (as in previous wars, numbers falsified), the inversion to the perceived moral high ground for a provably barbaric terror gang and an outpouring of sympathy, which translates to world support, the mass vilification of Jews anywhere, and pressure on Israel to cease/suspend hostilities while Hamas (in a desperate state at this moment) can take the opportunity to regroup, set up fresh assaults and ambushes, or escape. "Babies" cold-bloodedly used as human "sacrifices" is more to the point.

Edited November 21, 2023 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

Good basics on 'Rules of War' from Onkar Ghate.

 

[AlexL]

What a scumbag !

Edited November 23, 2023 by AlexL

[whYNOT]

https://www.theepochtimes.com/epochtv/the-truth-about-the-hostages-and-the-israel-hamas-ceasefire-colonel-richard-kemp-atlnow-5539835?utm_source=NS_ATLNewsletter&src_src=NS_ATLNewsletter&utm_campaign=2023-12-01&src_cmp=2023-12-01&utm_medium=email&est=fQLt0pnGRFRXAGYFrmNp3XzkzKanyTCSq9sQSwOGCFTYxGaXyUTobiRU4VmrS78DNNoPDQ%3D%3D?utm_source=ref_share&utm_campaign=copy

 

[Boydstun]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:55 AM, Boydstun said:

 

Hamas Network of Tunnels Under Gaza

"The IDF say they have destroyed 500 'terror tunnel' shafts used by Hamas in Gaza, out of the 800 they say have been found so far." –3 December 2023

[stansfield123]

On 11/18/2023 at 1:53 AM, EC said:

Retaliatory force against those that initiate force is a requirement of the government via the court system only as a principle of justice (or if a government isn't available in an emergency in self defense) or military action (including preemptive strikes) but that isn't a negation of individual rights it's how they are defended and the sole purpose of a moral government. What you can't have is renegade vigilantes conducting "justice" as that is evil and called anarchy.

This is political philosophy. Political philosophy is for interactions among people who hold a degree of civilization. Not always perfect, but SOME civilization. For example, political philosophy has a small place when fighting an entity like Nazi Germany ... because even they were civilized enough to surrender, when the enemy closed in all around them. So, even in that case, the western allies demonstrating their willingness to adhere to the laws of war, had a benefit: it caused the Nazis and Japan to prefer to western forces, rather than continue the fight and end up occupied by Soviet forces which showed none of the restraint of America and Britain.

Hamas doesn't even have that. Even the laws of war are pointless, in Gaza. They will never surrender, no matter how much proof Israel provides that they are restrained by the laws of war. That what the laws of war are FOR, btw: The laws of war aren't meant to make us feel good about our behavior during a war (they can only achieve that for someone who's actively evading the facts about war). They're meant to end wars more quickly, by giving people the option to surrender.

Political philosophy has no business even being mentioned in a thread about fighting Hamas. The principles guiding the IDF, and anyone who supports their mission to eliminate Hamas, should be the far more concrete than that: strictly pertaining to practical methods of eliminating hostile forces similar to Hamas (forces less humane or principled than, for example, the Nazis).

We have lots of examples, through history. It's just that modern mainstream culture refuses to understand why that history exists. The only thing it is willing to do is condemn without any understanding. To babble about "rights", when talking about people who acted against savages who had no regard at all for any notion of civilization.

There's no point in discussing philosophical principles, without an understanding of where they come from and why they exist. Without that understanding, these principles are worse than useless. They're a hindrance rather than a benefit. Someone with no regard for philosophy will make better decisions than someone who follows philosophy without understanding the reason for it.

Edited December 4, 2023 by stansfield123

[tadmjones]

11 hours ago, Boydstun said:

"The IDF say they have destroyed 500 'terror tunnel' shafts used by Hamas in Gaza, out of the 800 they say have been found so far." –3 December 2023

As has been cautioned in other threads, information sourced from a belligerent in/during a conflict regarding the situation on the ground is probably the least objective or reliable description of the facts.

There is a lot of talk about 'the terror tunnel system' within Gaza along with the implication that their presence represents a direct threat to the safety of the Israelis. The connotation always being that they are offensive structures, but if they are located within Gaza and assuming they all/most terminate within Gaza, their utility is probably more significant tactically, strategically, and logistically in an incursion into Gaza, no?

[stansfield123]

22 minutes ago, tadmjones said:

As has been cautioned in other threads, information sourced from a belligerent in/during a conflict regarding the situation on the ground is probably the least objective or reliable description of the facts.

This oft' repeated cliche just isn't true. Armies fighting on behalf of free societies have a long history of accurately reporting the situation on the ground, up the chain of command. That's probably the main source of their superiority over even equally or over-matched opponents: they have a far clearer picture of the battlefield as a result of this policy of honesty. It's why Ukraine is fighting back the Russians, for example.

And once that happens within the ranks of an army, the truth is impossible to hide, because journalists (and, these days, even ordinary citizens, thanks to social media) have access to information at every level of that chain of command. So, even if the IDF spokesman sitting atop that chain wished to lie, he couldn't. His info would be contradicted by those below him.

The IDF is, by far, the most reliable source of information about Gaza. No other source even comes close.

Edited December 4, 2023 by stansfield123

[Boydstun]

Tad,

Quote

The intricate and deep tunnel network offers Hamas fighters critical advantages. John Spencer, Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the West Point’s Modern War Institute, has highlighted some of the offensive and defensive asymmetrical advantages the tunnel network provides. Offensively, the tunnels allow Hamas to attack by surprise. Fighters can move quickly between prepared attack positions before popping up, striking, and then retiring to the relative safety of a tunnel. Hamas also uses the tunnels to conceal and move munitions, such as rockets, and has rigged tunnels with explosives that can be used under areas where the IDF may be operating. Defensively, the tunnels are used to protect against and survive attacks. No two tunnels are the same, and the difficulty in detecting and accessing them can undercut Israel’s significant advantage in multi-domain intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities. As part of its defense strategy, Hamas has tunneled under and connected to protected sites such as schools, hospitals, and mosques.

—Lieber Institute – West Point

I noticed also, on the offensive side (in the attack 10/7/23 on Israel by Hamas), the tunnels allowed for surprise because communications were by hardwire in the tunnels and could not be intercepted for indication of the mustering of an attack, even a large one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Future helper

Edited December 4, 2023 by Boydstun

[stansfield123]

24 minutes ago, tadmjones said:

There is a lot of talk about 'the terror tunnel system' within Gaza along with the implication that their presence represents a direct threat to the safety of the Israelis.

The threat isn't the tunnels, it's the enemy hiding in them. And the mission is to kill or capture the enemy. The tunnels are being demolished to drive them to the surface, where they can be killed or captured by Israel's mechanized divisions.

And you know all this.

[tadmjones]

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

The threat isn't the tunnels, it's the enemy hiding in them. And the mission is to kill or capture the enemy. The tunnels are being demolished to drive them to the surface, where they can be killed or captured by Israel's mechanized divisions.

And you know all this.

Like I said , the tunnel network is a defensive utility for the terrorists.

The breach of the world's most fortified security perimeter that enabled the Oct 7 massacre had more to do with a failure on the part of Israel than any advantage the tunnel system gave to Hamas.

That flame is harder to temper than Bibi thought apparently.

Edited December 4, 2023 by tadmjones

[EC]

3 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

This is political philosophy. Political philosophy is for interactions among people who hold a degree of civilization. Not always perfect, but SOME civilization. For example, political philosophy has a small place when fighting an entity like Nazi Germany ... because even they were civilized enough to surrender, when the enemy closed in all around them. So, even in that case, the western allies demonstrating their willingness to adhere to the laws of war, had a benefit: it caused the Nazis and Japan to prefer to western forces, rather than continue the fight and end up occupied by Soviet forces which showed none of the restraint of America and Britain.

Hamas doesn't even have that. Even the laws of war are pointless, in Gaza. They will never surrender, no matter how much proof Israel provides that they are restrained by the laws of war. That what the laws of war are FOR, btw: The laws of war aren't meant to make us feel good about our behavior during a war (they can only achieve that for someone who's actively evading the facts about war). They're meant to end wars more quickly, by giving people the option to surrender.

Political philosophy has no business even being mentioned in a thread about fighting Hamas. The principles guiding the IDF, and anyone who supports their mission to eliminate Hamas, should be the far more concrete than that: strictly pertaining to practical methods of eliminating hostile forces similar to Hamas (forces less humane or principled than, for example, the Nazis).

We have lots of examples, through history. It's just that modern mainstream culture refuses to understand why that history exists. The only thing it is willing to do is condemn without any understanding. To babble about "rights", when talking about people who acted against savages who had no regard at all for any notion of civilization.

There's no point in discussing philosophical principles, without an understanding of where they come from and why they exist. Without that understanding, these principles are worse than useless. They're a hindrance rather than a benefit. Someone with no regard for philosophy will make better decisions than someone who follows philosophy without understanding the reason for it.

You didn't read the sources or you would understand all your claims of "political philosophy" which is only one part of the whole integrated philosophy of Objectivism is only a partial concern. Why are you even posting on an Objectivist forum? Again, and just because it isn't being currently enforced as this forum has virtually disintegrated over the years, those that are opposed to or are non-Objectivists are only supposed to post legitimate questions in the context of Objectivism to receive Objectivist answers and are not allowed to create non-Objectivist rants and opinion pieces promoting non-Objectivist ideas here. Reporting now, even though all are moderators along with the majority of posters have disappeared.

[Boydstun]

11 hours ago, Boydstun said:

Tad,

. . .

I noticed also, on the offensive side (in the attack 10/7/23 on Israel by Hamas), the tunnels allowed for surprise because communications were by hardwire in the tunnels and could not be intercepted for indication of the mustering of an attack, even a large one.

. . .

That post may have been a couple of hours before the one of yours, Tad, that I quote below, but it was not very far upstream of yours. Did you not see it?

9 hours ago, tadmjones said:

. . .

The breach of the world's most fortified security perimeter that enabled the Oct 7 massacre had more to do with a failure on the part of Israel than any advantage the tunnel system gave to Hamas.

. . .

But don't you see that Israel was taken by surprise exactly because communications of Hamas could not be monitored because Hamas was able to use the tunnels for all communications among themselves with hardwire communication lines in the tunnels? As I said to you earlier.

[Boydstun]

8 hours ago, EC said:

. . . Why are you even posting on an Objectivist forum? . . .

Well, at least he or she seems to be an actual human, seriously engaged in a two-way flow of information, argument, and learning. Unlike that apologist for Putin who came on here a few months ago only to preach and indicate he/she/it had nothing to learn from anyone else writing here or from Rand's philosophy.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Boydstun

[Boydstun]

8 hours ago, EC said:

Again, and just because it isn't being currently enforced as this forum has virtually disintegrated over the years, those that are opposed to or are non-Objectivists are only supposed to post legitimate questions in the context of Objectivism to receive Objectivist answers and are not allowed to create non-Objectivist rants and opinion pieces promoting non-Objectivist ideas here. Reporting now, even though all are [our] moderators along with the majority of posters have disappeared.

EC, discussion at posting boards like this one have fewer participants than years back, I suggest, overwhelmingly because of what has gradually become on offer at Facebook for them. The participants I've joined with here have shown themselves through the years, to the present, to be worthwhile to communicate with, and I'm glad the owner now allows opinion pieces promoting non-Objectivist ideas here, which has led to some good discussions. The FB format and this one each have advantages. FB can have much visual material such as photos of people or text. The format here allows space for normal writing as in a journal or a book, and it is in such writing venues, paper or screen, that the most serious of human thought can be reached by the originator and carefully, precisely held to account by themselves and others.

Also, at this site, but not Facebook, you can see how many hits something you posted has gotten, an important feedback. My experience is that the more work at information and thought I've put into a post, the more hits it gets over time. Following number of hits, by the way, suggests that for the handful of people who write anything here, there are about 20 times that many who do not post here, but who hit my more substantive posts.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Boydstun

[tadmjones]

1 hour ago, Boydstun said:

That post may have been a couple of hours before the one of yours, Tad, that I quote below, but it was not very far upstream of yours. Did you not see it?

But don't you see that Israel was taken by surprise exactly because communications of Hamas could not be monitored because Hamas was able to use the tunnels for all communications among themselves with hardwire communication lines in the tunnels? As I said to you earlier.

Stephen 

You understand that the importance placed on the existence of the tunnels and the threat they project is what I am calling propaganda.

The breach of the world’s most secure perimeter monitoring system wasn’t achieved by dint of surprise of time and place , the 50 th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war along a section of the Gaza border, alone.
I am sure you aware of the calls for investigating and justifying the draw down of forces in that immediate area?

The documented barbarity and brutality gives license to Israel’s response , which in turn gives license and talk in the West of relocating the Gazans entoto , weird how that falls in place. Those damn tunnels.

Edited December 5, 2023 by tadmjones

[whYNOT]

7 hours ago, tadmjones said:

 

The documented barbarity and brutality gives license to Israel’s response , which in turn gives license and talk in the West of relocating the Gazans entoto , weird how that falls in place. Those damn tunnels.

The common talk is of what cause justifies what response. And then descending into "proportionality", and moral equivalence - and legitimacy - of the two parties, where there is none.

I think it's true that part cause of Israel's reactions is retributive by nature, but its enemies mistakenly and deliberately see only this quid pro quo. Anything more has to be deliberate "genocide".

The greater cause is to ensure that this (and the earlier hostile outbreaks) will not be repeated - permanently. To also send a signal to Hezbollah forces waiting in the wings, testing for irresolute weakness from Israel and its allies, to invade. 

The tunnels are offensive/defensive. As the IDF is discovering (and always knew). Apart from command posts, caches of arms, training and building rockets etc., for these many years, terrorists can emerge from one of them within the civilian population, assault, ambush and hide.

Taking them out in advance of troops requires huge ground demolition. All to the good for visual propaganda.

(and still no official word about Hamas casualties - as one would expect, they have to be extensive, at least half of the given numbers: so far, the Gazan "ministry of health" lists all deaths within "civilian casualties" - and mostly women and children - in order to signify Israel's genocidal intent. Believe the figures of an organization under terrorist control, you will believe anything) 

Edited December 5, 2023 by whYNOT