Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[whYNOT]

https://click.mlsend.com/link/c/YT0yMzQyMjY1NDI0MzA3MDI5Nzc3JmM9bjZzNyZlPTIxNDYmYj0xMjM0OTI1Njg1JmQ9ZzNwMGQxYQ==.voazWm3K59_hy0m7qMtBhK-U980UNQxgKovJ88puAws

Those fabricated and deceiving figures

Edited November 7, 2023 by whYNOT

[Eiuol]

8 hours ago, AlexL said:

My comment was not about ethnic purity.

But you are incapable of challenging it without misrepresenting it.

To say that some ethnicity is better as the majority is to say that any other ethnicity or mix thereof is worse *because* of their ethnicity. This is part of why Rand considered ethnicity to be an anti-concept. You are making a consideration based on an ethnicity itself being responsible for different ideas or thoughts. 

You might not intend to convey ethnic purity as desirable, but that's the consequence. 

 

[EC]

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

That poison was the product of people being treated with a few 1000 years of racial-religious contempt, repression and murderous cleansing. Jews obviously felt "set apart", for all that they had been (in recent centuries), the most assimilated and loyal French, German, Polish, British, etc., subjects.

Right, "based on blood", born into by (maternal) ancestry and not simple for outsiders to convert into. That most (Leftist) Jews politically and socially, are or purport to be non/anti-racist is a contradiction in convictions.

Earlier Christians of course condemned the Jewish faith's perceived 'selfish arrogance'. Like the Fundamentalist Muslims now, as we know, they were aggressively proselytic, explaining why race was unimportant to them: They want ~everyone~ converted eventually, by preference or force

Anyway, if one is to observe individual rights, a person's "freedom of action" and choices is not one's concern and business. One can and will blast religion, as religion, and equally respect a person's right to practice one.

Rationally, the Zionists wanted their invaluable freedom to act within their self-determining nation, it seems to me: For the religious Jews - and atheist/agnostic Jews - and any other types. Who were ALL without distinction - as now - treated with bigotry or in danger for their lives In Europe -- merely "by virtue of blood".

First, they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew and did not speak up, then they came for the Christians, but I was not.., then they came for the collectivist non-believers, but ..., then they came for the individualist non-believers ... and there was no one left to speak out.

These posts are the quality I remembered from you and is the reason why I am always disturbed about your pro-Russian stance.

[Easy Truth]

21 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

I'm for acknowledging the basic reality that peace is not possible, and devising a strategy that keeps conflict to a minimum. That strategy, for Israel, involves keeping the Islamists away from its borders. Because Islamists will always attack Israel.

However, some would argue that the current conflict is a minimal conflict, as only 1400 Israelis were murdered out of a country of 8 million. Or 1400 in the last ten years etc. Assuming the minimum is based on Body count. Then hasn't the strategy worked in keeping it at a minimum? Why is there such an overreaction?

To make it minimal Israel could get rid of all Palestinians. As in Kill them all. Why is that not a solution openly advocated?

A holocaust for different people. As long as we don't suffer a holocaust, it's okay for others to suffer one. They deserve it, we don't.

But if Palestinians have hatred of Jews in their DNA, determined, guaranteed, then that is the proper ... final solution.

I would assume that you would see that as immoral on some grounds. I would argue because there are good and bad amongst them. There are innocents involved.

A strategy of getting children killed as collateral damage creates a world that Israelis don't want. Seething anger all around them ... forever ... toward all Jewish people. This whole thing has to be turned around and IT IS POSSIBLE.

[tadmjones]

I’m currently going through a series of articles by Whitney Webb published on Mintpressnews.com from 2019 that talk about the history of Zionism both Christian and Jewish. She pretty much ‘brings the receipts’ to the subjects she speaks on.

I was familiar with the idea that current evangelical x-tians are for the most part Zionists , but I was not aware of the history and extent of the activism.

Apparently the end times are serious motivating factors and bankers like war and chaos , a match made in heaven.

Edited November 7, 2023 by tadmjones

[AlexL]

4 hours ago, Eiuol said:

12 hours ago, AlexL said:

My comment was not about ethnic purity.

But you are incapable of challenging it without misrepresenting it.

To say that some ethnicity is better as the majority [...]

I said nothing of the kind. Here is what I wrote:

Quote

My view is that Israel has to keep a solid Jewish majority.

The purpose is double:

1. to keep a solid electoral majority
2. and to keep a military superiority over the potential enemies.

#2 stems from the (sad but real fact) that in case of war the Jews will be ready to risk their lives more than non-Jews.

There is nothing here about some ethnicity being better as another.

Try to challenge what I really wrote, don't substitute it with something you are able to challenge.

Edited November 7, 2023 by AlexL
format

[Eiuol]

37 minutes ago, AlexL said:

There is nothing here about some ethnicity being better as another.

No, you didn't say that Jewish is the best identity. You dropped the context of your own statement about Jews being the best ethnicity for Israel. Pretty much an ethnostate premise, including the idea that "realistically" it's just a fact that people of the shared ethnicity will be ready to risk their lives more than those of a different ethnicity. 

45 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Try to challenge what I really wrote,

Then clarify what you wrote. 

[Doug Morris]

20 hours ago, tadmjones said:

bankers like war and chaos

Is this your view or Webb's view?

 

[AlexL]

23 hours ago, Eiuol said:

23 hours ago, AlexL said:

Try to challenge what I really wrote,

Then clarify what you wrote. 

Then tell me what do you find unclear in what I wrote. Here is it again:

Quote

My view is that Israel has to keep a solid Jewish majority.

The purpose is double:

1. to keep a solid electoral majority
2. and to keep a military superiority over the potential enemies.

#2 stems from the (sad but real fact) that in case of war the Jews will be ready to risk their lives more than non-Jews.

Edited November 8, 2023 by AlexL

[AlexL]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:07 AM, Grames said:

[...]

I am still waiting for your coment on this. You should better be aware that the matter is serious.

[tadmjones]

9 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

Is this your view or Webb's view?

 

Why can’t it be both?

 

[Doug Morris]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:11 PM, tadmjones said:

bankers like war and chaos

OK. I take it this is both your view and Webb's view.  My impression had been the opposite.  What do you and/or Webb base this on?

 

[tadmjones]

41 minutes ago, Doug Morris said:

OK. I take it this is both your view and Webb's view.  My impression had been the opposite.  What do you and/or Webb base this on?

 

My hyperbolic rhetoric has probably got the better of me , I didn't mean to single out 'bankers' , I meant more the 'financial class' and by that I mean those who have disposal over large amounts of capital in the form of financial instruments to a degree that those actions can affect or be recognized as consequential in 'world markets'/

I think the Federal Reserve sees war as an opportunity for them to increase their 'business' and demand for their product.

i could see that if you are using the word to describe a private individual that lends out capital in the form of credit or money in a manner that would not allow themselves to be bankrupted by lending to parties with a rational expectation of having the loans repaid, yeah those types would probably rather not ply their trade in an active war zone.

[whYNOT]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:39 PM, EC said:

These posts are the quality I remembered from you and is the reason why I am always disturbed about your pro-Russian stance.

Thank you, but way off. My first consideration was for Ukrainians and what I anticipated could only be great bloodshed, however the war turned out. I could never have predicted its present scale. If only those "defenders of Ukraine" had had their best interests at heart. It apparently has not occurred to many. Ukraine was set up to be the convenient "punch bag" on which Russia would eventually ~have to~ expend itself, so "Weakening Russia" was always the motive. The largest propaganda coup in history, convincing everyone that an insane Putin could not be reasoned and negotiated with and his invasion was unpreventable, even 'fated', with Russia's aims on wider invasions and occupations.

Russia and Putin were/are not a terror gang, to which there is only one response and zero diaogue.

Edited November 11, 2023 by whYNOT

[Eiuol]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:19 PM, AlexL said:

Then tell me what do you find unclear in what I wrote. Here is it again:

I told you what I thought based on what you wrote. If you think my reasoning went wrong, you have to point out where. What you wrote is perfectly clear, I just think you don't realize the implications of what you're saying.  

[stansfield123]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:21 AM, Grames said:

Jewishness is based on blood. 

Nonsense. Israeli Jews come from all over the world, and two random Jews have less DNA in common than you and Beyonce.

Jewishness is based in the same exact thing as Frenchness: a shared cultural identity. Aka "ethnicity".

 

Quote

Israel is an ethno-state.

Yep. Same as the vast majority of western countries. Not suggesting that's the ideal basis for a state. But, if you look at the world: when an "ethno-state" with an old culture is able to be individualistic (which it naturally tends to be ... they had many centuries to figure out that you have to be, to thrive) it produces pretty damn good outcomes.

Of course, Jews have the oldest culture of them all. And it tends to produce the best outcomes of them all. That's why people like you hate them so much. You think an ethnicity which does well must be cheating somehow. But they're not. What they're doing is out in the open. You just need to ask any Jewish neighbor, and they'll be happy to tell you how they live, how they raise their children, and why they do it that way.

Edited November 12, 2023 by stansfield123

[stansfield123]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:30 AM, Eiuol said:

As if that's a good thing?

I mean, this is an ethnic identity, and founding or operating a country on ethnic identity is a bad thing.

Why? Do you think France would be a better place, if it didn't have an ethnic identity?

There are about 80 countries, roughly speaking, in the world, which are okay to live in. By "okay", I mean they're better to live in than 99% of political entities in the history of the human race.

Wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of these 80 countries have an ethnic identity? Or, to make it super simple, wouldn't you agree that France (which is on my top 5 list of countries I'd be happy to live in ... France is amazing, I lived there before, that's why I keep using it as an example, I can't imagine how anyone would realistically object to France, it's just uncontroversially amazing) has an ethnic identity?

I guess this is what it boils down to:

1. Do you agree that modern France is amazing, in the context of overall recorded human history?

2. Do you agree that modern France has an ethnic identity?

If you agree with those two things, the Jewish identity is the French identity, squared. They're like the French, who are amazing, but even more amazing, because they have several thousand extra years worth of written culture. Living culture. Culture which actually survived the test of time (and the test of nazi shitheads like some on this very forum), not long dead culture we admire from 2000+ years away.

Edited November 13, 2023 by stansfield123

[Eiuol]

7 minutes ago, stansfield123 said:

Do you think France would be a better place, if it didn't have an ethnic identity?

You missed the second part, about operating a country based on ethnic identity. I said nothing about having an ethnic identity. Having an ethnic identity or supporting it is no issue to me. 

 

[stansfield123]

1 minute ago, Eiuol said:

You missed the second part, about operating a country based on ethnic identity.

Everything operates based on its identity. Surely, this is the one forum on the entire Internet where no one should deny that.

Saying that "France doesn't operate based on an ethnic identity" is the exact same thing as saying that "France doesn't have an ethnic identity".

France does have an ethnic identity, though. N'est pas?

[Eiuol]

Individual rights are the proper basis on which to run a country. 

7 minutes ago, stansfield123 said:

Saying that "France doesn't operate based on an ethnic identity" is the exact same thing as saying that "France doesn't have an ethnic identity".

There is so much to unpack here that I honestly lost interest in the discussion. 

[stansfield123]

10 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

Individual rights are the proper basis on which to run a country.

True (sort of ... individual rights is the ideal basis on which to run a country ... the proper basis on which to run a country is whatever realistically allows its people to live as freely as possible).

That aside: Israel is as close to that ideal as any country on Earth. Gaza,  meanwhile, was as far from that ideal as any country on Earth. I say was, because Bibi just held a press conference in which he told us that Gaza's days of existing as a separate political entity are over.

Edited November 13, 2023 by stansfield123

[stansfield123]

... you guys have very confusing buttons ... I keep pressing the wrong ones:)

Edited November 13, 2023 by stansfield123

[EC]

17 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

True (sort of ... individual rights is the ideal basis on which to run a country ... the proper basis on which to run a country is whatever realistically allows its people to live as freely as possible).

That aside: Israel is as close to that ideal as any country on Earth. Gaza,  meanwhile, was as far from that ideal as any country on Earth. I say was, because Bibi just held a press conference in which he told us that Gaza's days of existing as a separate political entity are over.

The ideal and the "proper" (practical) are identical when proper rational philosophy is applied. There exists no ideal/practical false dichotomy when it comes to proper rational philosophy and a proper moral governments sole job to protect individual rights. 

The purpose of this Forum is to ask questions and receive correct answers in the context of Objectivism. Promoting false and/or evil ideas here (pragmatism in this case) used to (and still should) lead to a snapban.

Edited November 13, 2023 by EC

[Easy Truth]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:49 AM, stansfield123 said:

Of course, Jews have the oldest culture of them all. And it tends to produce the best outcomes of them all. That's why people like you hate them so much. You think an ethnicity which does well must be cheating somehow. But they're not. What they're doing is out in the open. You just need to ask any Jewish neighbor, and they'll be happy to tell you how they live, how they raise their children, and why they do it that way.

The unjustified hate usually comes from their success as a community. This was true of Armenians, Chinese, and Indians in Africa. They stick together, do business together, and help each other more than outsiders.

Another other issue with Christians is that their messiah was not supported by the Jews.

Finally, one would suspect any religious group that thinks they are the chosen one of the creator will get animosity from other "believers".

18 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

That aside: Israel is as close to that ideal as any country on Earth. Gaza,  meanwhile, was as far from that ideal as any country on Earth. I say was, because Bibi just held a press conference in which he told us that Gaza's days of existing as a separate political entity are over.

If we are into outcomes, then the oil-rich countries, have great outcomes. Some have high levels of socialism like Norway, and some are feudal states with great healthcare and education for their "people"

The question is not about Jewish people, it is regarding the behavior of the government of Israel which ultimately is run by a philosophy that is Zionism which will push it toward a faith-based ethnic bias toward "its" people.

It was part of this blindness that allowed them to prop up Hamas to weaken the PLO. PLO had already accepted Israel's existence.

[AlexL]

2 hours ago, EC said:

Promoting false and/or evil ideas here (pragmatism in this case) used to (and still should) lead to a snapban.

Which provisions of the Guidelines would allow @stansfield123to be banned on the spot?

18 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

Bibi just held a press conference in which he told us that Gaza's days of existing as a separate political entity are over.

Did he? Do you have a reference?