Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[stansfield123]

25 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

Not collectivist. In - “I really don’t care about this conflict” because I have no dog in the fight, or words to that effect - I read simply that it doesn’t involve him, doesn’t involve his interests. It may as well be a battle between good and evil a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. “But which side is good and which is evil, you gotta decide!!” No, we don’t have to. We don’t have to be interested or care at all. There are too many conflicts today and it would take too much time. Not collectivist. Focused on what affects us.

I agree that someone who doesn't live in the region shouldn't focus too much on this. I'm quite deliberate in avoiding spending significant time on it myself. It's been days since I last posted in this thread, and that was the last time I discussed it, anywhere.

But that's not really what we're talking about. EVERYONE in this thread has already made the decision to dedicate some focus to the issue, so it would be absurd to interpret "I don't care" as "I choose to not direct my focus to it".

What "I don't care" means, in this thread, is "I'm focused on this (as evidenced by my presence in the thread) but it doesn't illicit a reaction in me".

And "I don't care because the rape and murder victims are of a different ethnicity than me" ....

Quote

“But which side is good and which is evil, you gotta decide!!”

Well you're here anyway, so why not exercise your rational faculty, and pass some judgement. Not on everything all at once. I don't want to take up too much of your time and focus. But pass SOME judgement.

In fact, since all journeys start with a single step, let's just decide ONE THING. The simplest, easiest decision in all of this, imo: Is Hamas evil, yes or no? That should take very little effort to answer.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by stansfield123

[EC]

You are supposed to "care" because a relatively rights respecting nation of relatively freedom loving humans were savagely attacked, murdered, raped, kidnapped, i.e. had their individual rights violated on a mass scale by a group of terrorists focused on wiping out not just Israel but all of civilization, in direct affiliation with Iran, Russia, China, and N. Korea.

[Jon Letendre]

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

What "I don't care" means, in this thread, is "I don't care because the rape and murder victims are of a different ethnicity than me"

“Pass SOME judgement!! Was Darth Vader evil, yes or no?”

Can’t you answer for me? You know my heart, and Grames’. It’s obvious you know everything.

[Jon Letendre]

So if I cared, and studied hard, I would discover the truth that Russia, China, Iran, Korea and a group of terrorists are united on wiping out all of civilization?

For real?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Jon Letendre

[Easy Truth]

2 hours ago, AlexL said:

5 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

why don't they make a lasting peace with their enemies... Israel is evading that reality.

You sound like you see an obvious solution. What is it?

Since killing 100 Palestinians is required to get each Hamas leader, I would assume there are around 1000 Hamas leaders in Gaza. That would mean killing 100,000 non-combatants to get those 1000 people.

This is a low estimate, the implication being that Israel will simply perpetuate the animosity which will grow with enemies that will gather strength in disparate parts of the world.

In this sense, Israel lost this public relations war against these Kamakazi forces before it started. It became far too confident about the chess game it was playing. If there is a realistic long-term solution, it has to be created on the negotiating table.

Multiple Muslim countries normalized relations with Israel when it was thought to be impossible. Israel currently gets half of its oil from a Muslim country (Azerbaijan).

People will bring up the fact that Hamas's charter says Israel should not exist. But they forgot that the PLO's charter said the same thing yet negotiations were successful and their charter changed.

I don't deny that the attack by Hamas was heinous and uncalled for, unjustified, savage, horrific, and evil. But it did not grow for years into this kind of sophisticated savagery without any provocation.

 

[Easy Truth]

1 hour ago, EC said:

You are supposed to "care" because a relatively rights respecting nation of relatively freedom loving humans were savagely attacked, murdered, raped, kidnapped, i.e. had their individual rights violated on a mass scale by a group of terrorists focused on wiping out not just Israel but all of civilization, in direct affiliation with Iran, Russia, China, and N. Korea.

But are you going to get rid of them by enraging those who could in fact make peace with you? Most Palestinians are going to be like anyone else, they don't want war and will compromise. To paint them all as being evil is implying they are not human. This is also the case with all those other countries that you mention. Once you see them as collectively evil, there is NO solution except mutual annihilation in this case. Like Israel is good and Plastenians and their 1 billion supporters are all evil. World War three is around the corner.

[Eiuol]

4 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

If Zionism is invalid, it's okay to say "I don't care about beheaded babies, or about people fucking the corpses of young women they murdered at a music festival, because they were Jewish and I'm not"?

Whatever Hamas does doesn't mean that Israel was retroactively justified in being founded on principles of Zionism. 

4 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

The fighting force itself is ~20-25K strong.

Got anything to back that up? I genuinely want to know what the estimates are. Any link would be enough.

[Grames]

6 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

If Zionism is invalid, it's okay to say "I don't care about beheaded babies, or about people fucking the corpses of young women they murdered at a music festival, because they were Jewish and I'm not"?

Yes.  Israeli settlers have done similar things.  Religious wars are like that.  I reject both of the religions involved.  You should too.

[AlexL]

9 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

Since killing 100 Palestinians [...]

Israel lost this public relations war [...]

Multiple Muslim countries [...]

People will bring up the fact [...]

I don't deny [...]

You did not answer my follow-up question: your solution for a lasting peace.

Edited November 3, 2023 by AlexL

[whYNOT]

Number of Hamas soldiers/terrorists?

30-40,000 Hamas fighters, officially. Reuters says 40k. Many more 'irregulars' can be added, the untrained and youngsters forced to bear weapons, carry out suicide ops, etc.

Therefore, the "genocide" alarmists/Israeli-haters can expect (base minimum) 30,000 "civilians" killed, if the war runs its full course. And prove their point.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjK5NupvKeCAxWAT0EAHVbeCacQFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.axios.com%2F2023%2F10%2F21%2Fpalestine-hamas-military-power&usg=AOvVaw1XKLUPkwdQZr4d1nohaiZm&opi=89978449

Edited November 3, 2023 by whYNOT

[AlexL]

6 hours ago, Grames said:

12 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

...beheaded babies, or about people fucking the corpses of young women...

Yes.  Israeli settlers have done similar things. 

Can you cite your sources for that information? With specifics.

[whYNOT]

It is really simple. Hamas has been and is, explicitly, dedicated to wiping out Israel.

Never the reverse; with ample opportunity, justification, and overwhelming military power.

Until now, with many provocations, several defensive minor wars and skirmishes, and almost daily rocket attacks since Hamas came in in 2006 --Israel did not wish or attempt to reciprocate. They thought with the carrot and stick they could civilize Gaza to be responsible and independent.

All Palestinians steadily rejected a 2-state solution.  They want the entire land with no Israel. 

Now, when Israel decides "enough" - the world cries Foul!

The weak 'victims' have unlimited license to 'defend' themselves, the strong are allowed very little.

That egregious moral double standard the Left in particular has normalized.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by whYNOT

[stansfield123]

9 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Whatever Hamas does doesn't mean that Israel was retroactively justified in being founded on principles of Zionism.

So you don't care about the beheaded babies either? Why? Were those babies "Zionists"?

[stansfield123]

10 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

But are you going to get rid of them by enraging those who could in fact make peace with you?

If your neighbor came over and told you "I wanna live in peace with you, so long as you don't do anything to enrage me" ... would that help you sleep better or worse, at night?

[Easy Truth]

5 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

If your neighbor came over and told you "I wanna live in peace with you, so long as you don't do anything to enrage me" ... would that help you sleep better or worse, at night?

If my neighbor without any provocation, initiated force for no reason, then I would retaliate the only way that I can. But if I have provoked them, or I have in fact enraged them, then I'm being stupid or insensitive or at worst pathological.

The history of this war has both sides, as a whole, enraging the other. Zionism at that beginning was an initiation of force. This land is ours because "of our religion" does not make sense. But now that we have a more advanced country that has similar values to the West, you would be better off supporting Israel. This is the current logic used apparently that won't solve the problem.

Once both sides have a majority that deals with the fact that the cycle of violence is not in their best interest, they will come up with something that works. Both sides are vulnerable. Both sides can kill many innocents of the other side.

There have been problems created by Israelis too, for instance:

"Between January and November 2008, 515 criminal suits were opened by Israel against settlers for violence against Arabs or Israeli security forces; 502 of these involved "right wing radicals" while 13 involved "left wing anarchists".^[7][8] In 2008, the senior Israeli commander in the West Bank said that a hard core of a few hundred activists were involved in violence against the Palestinians and Israeli soldiers.^[9]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence}

But even before that, you had the Irgun, the terrorist organization that would empty out the country of Palestinians who had lived there for centuries. Now having said that, it does not justify what Hamas has done. It only illuminates the problem itself which is collective punishment used by both sides.

Ultimately the Palestinians will purge the "violent ones" if they see it will benefit them. The way it is right now, the peaceful Palestinian leadership did not benefit them, as the PLO has little authority anymore.

Most Israelis will live side by side and most Palestinians would too. But the inability to bridge the gap, which is emotional, will not allow it.

You have a right to be angry, something horrific has happened. The problem is that your line of argument, your proposals, and your solution will not work in the long run.

 

[Easy Truth]

6 hours ago, whYNOT said:

It is really simple. Hamas has been and is, explicitly, dedicated to wiping out Israel.

Never the reverse; with ample opportunity, justification, and overwhelming military power.

Until now, with many provocations, several defensive minor wars and skirmishes, and almost daily rocket attacks since Hamas came in in 2006 --Israel did not wish or attempt to reciprocate. They thought with the carrot and stick they could civilize Gaza to be responsible and independent.

All Palestinians steadily rejected a 2-state solution.  They want the entire land with no Israel. 

Now, when Israel decides "enough" - the world cries Foul!

The weak 'victims' have unlimited license to 'defend' themselves, the strong are allowed very little.

That egregious moral double standard the Left in particular has normalized.

The way you look at the situation is based on two collectives in conflict with each other. Not that it is entirely invalid, but the nuances will not be seen and the solution will not be available.

PLO also was dedicated to wiping out Israel. And by default, Israel progressively has ended up "wiping out" the "many" of the other side. At a minimum, Palestinians are a second-class citizen in their own land.

The right-wing governments ever since Sharon have not used the carrot as much as the previous ones. They became more and more hardline when they saw they could get away with it. That is primarily what the world is reacting to.

Palestinians did not reject the 2 state solution, they did not agree to the deal put in front of them. Otherwise, they would not even have come to the negotiating table.

The "Foul" that the world cries is because the Palestinians have no voice anymore and have been treated that way by Israel (collectively through these series of governments).

The strong have won militarily and subjugated the "other". The US did not do that in Japan or Germany after so many of its (American) citizens were killed. Your knee-jerk reaction to destroy Gaza will end up being a long-term problem. At least acknowledge that it is a hard problem to solve.

 

 

 

[stansfield123]

18 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

 The problem is that your line of argument, your proposals, and your solution will not work in the long run.

You misunderstand my goal with these proposals. You think I'm suggesting that these actions will lead to peace between Israel and all Muslims.

I am most definitely not. I think the notion is absurd beyond belief. Anyone who talks about Israel achieving permanent peace with "the Palestinians", or any other Muslim population, is hopelessly deluded, and has not clue at all what the ideology driving entities like Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban, or Iran, is.

If you really are suggesting that the goal here is peace, I can't imagine that you ever even thought to consider the nature of totalitarian ideologies.

My proposals aren't meant to achieve peace and harmony. They're meant to achieve the defeat of Iran backed Islamist forces in Gaza, and replace them with whatever non-Islamist entity happens to be most convenient. Anything that doesn't have the same totalitarian ideology as Hamas. Fatah, for instance, will work fine. So will some kind of proxy authority controlled by Egypt and the CIA. Doesn't matter.

Creating an environment, in the Middle East, which would allow Israel to exist in peace with its neighbors, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. It's an internal issue, in the Muslim world. There is a long term conflict going on, within the Muslim world itself, between Islamists and everyone else. The existence of that conflict, or the existence of Islamists, isn't caused by Israel. That's a silly notion. Why the hell would Israel cause Islamists to exist in central Africa? In Indonesia? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Turkey? Iran? Chechnya? You think Israel caused the Islamic Revolution in Iran, or the rise of the Taliban? Or Ergogan getting elected in Turkey?

Israel can't solve the Muslim world's internal problem, and it would be foolish of them to try. Their goal isn't peace, it's to live in relative security, while surrounded by a Muslim world which is in a state of massive internal conflict. A Muslim world that isn't peaceful, and will not be peaceful, for many decades to come.

None of the peace agreements Israel has are permanent. Israel doesn't have peace agreements with neighboring nations. It has peace agreements with neighboring regimes. Those regimes are temporary. The regime in Egypt can fall, the regime in Jordan can fall, etc. Even Turkey, which used to be best pals with Israel, fell to a semi-Islamist regime. The notion that the same thing can't happen in Jordan, or that things in Turkey can't get much worse, is wishful thinking.

There is nothing Israel can do to stop any of that. Israel can only prepare, and be willing to act swiftly and decisively when (not if) it happens. Conversely, of course, a reasonable regime (like Egypt's), can be installed in Gaza. Then, Israel can enjoy temporary peace with Gaza, just as it enjoys temporary peace with Egypt and Jordan.

That's the goal. Not this nonsensical "permanent peace" libertarian and liberal types like you go on about. You have no sense of history. No sense of what ideology is, and how it drives nations. This "tit for tat" view of conflict libertarians and liberals have, which thinks these totalitarian regimes and terror groups are a "reaction" to some kind of external aggression, is absurd. They're a consequence of internal failures. The Muslim world birthed a totalitarian ideology because it's rotten inside. Hamas is just the puss ball you see on the surface of the skin. The source of the puss is an infection deep within Islam. An overall rot, that produces similar puss balls all over the Muslim world. Boko Haram, Taliban, Iran's regime, Erdogan, etc.

None of it has anything to do with Israel ... which, btw, is in no way driven by totalitarian ideology. There's nothing totalitarian about "Zionism". Zionism is nationalistic the same way every nation is nationalistic. That's the other thing this thread is yet to pick up on: the massive difference between totalitarian ideologies like Marxism, Nazism and Islamism, and nationalism (the political idea which is at the core of the post 19th century nation state).

 

[AlexL]

6 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

If your neighbor came over and told you "I wanna live in peace with you, so long as you don't do anything to enrage me" ... would that help you sleep better or worse, at night?

But if everything the neighbor does, even him being my neighbor, enrages me, what then?😁

[Easy Truth]

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

My proposals aren't meant to achieve peace and harmony.

I assume you don't really mean this. At least in the long run. In the short run, I could see an argument like "We will fight to achieve a lasting peace". War as a means to it. Because the way it's worded it implies that you are for perpetual war and I suspect you are not for perpetual war.

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

If you really are suggesting that the goal here is peace, I can't imagine that you ever even thought to consider the nature of totalitarian ideologies.

We used to be in fear of nuclear war, potentially with a very totalitarian regime (the Soviet Union). We coexist with North Korea et al. We have survived successfully "considering" those totalitarian regimes. And closer to this conflict, there has been lasting peace with Egypt and to some extent with the PLO. The issue is: Can you get a lasting agreement where there will be no physical violence (for the most part and from the majority in each group)?

This has to be the goal. You can't lose sight of it. Otherwise, you're suggesting what Hamas wants in reverse.

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

Israel can't solve the Muslim world's internal problem, and it would be foolish of them to try. Their goal isn't peace, it's to live in relative security, while surrounded by a Muslim world which is in a state of massive internal conflict. A Muslim world that isn't peaceful, and will not be peaceful, for many decades to come.

Israel cannot convert Muslims, I'll grant you that. But we live with people all around us who have internal conflicts. It is to our benefit to not infuriate them when they will live separate lives. Now in the case of a criminal, we should use force. You are correct that individual Hamas members, especially those who perpetrated the attack should be killed. I would not disagree. It's the issue of the long term that HAS to be dealt with. If we are effective in planning the long term, "peace" has to be part of the conversation.

The fundamental disagreement that we are having seems to be centered around our understanding of the nature of each of the combatants. That one side is permanently and perpetually warlike and the other is peaceful. I would argue that both sides have been on a war stance since the start. Both claiming defense. Both claim retaliation. Now those claims will not change.

1 hour ago, stansfield123 said:

There's nothing totalitarian about "Zionism". Zionism is nationalistic the same way every nation is nationalistic.

And here is where the aggression starts. With this assertion. With this belief. If you had said for the most part it is not proven to be totalitarian, you might have had a point, but to say that there is NOTHING totalitarian about it, a government based on religion? I mean, it's obvious. Of course, there's going to be some totalitarianism. At its core it is faith-based.

Now if Israel was not a Jewish state, supporting individual rights, then there would be nothing totalitarian about Zionism. But then, that's not Zionism.

[Eiuol]

9 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

So you don't care about the beheaded babies either? Why? Were those babies "Zionists"?

Nice deflection. I didn't say I didn't care, I only expressed the basic idea that just because somebody does something bad to you doesn't mean that everything you have ever done is therefore good. You seem to be reacting as if I said that Hamas and Israel are morally equivalent. Earlier I even said that I am more on the side of Israel morally speaking. Grames seems to portray Hamas and Israel as morally equivalent, in which case "not caring" makes sense, but I don't have a reason to think that the actions of Israel are equally as premised on religion as Hamas. 

3 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

the massive difference between totalitarian ideologies like Marxism, Nazism and Islamism, and nationalism

You could call "Islamism" the Muslim form of Zionism. Judaism is a religion like any other. Some religions may be more totalitarian than others, but nationalism premised on a religion is still irrational and tends toward totalitarianism anyway. 

3 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

It's an internal issue, in the Muslim world.

"Don't mind me, I'm going to forcibly place myself in the region where you live, then act like I've been here for 5000 years because it is my ancestral homeland." 

An important way to end the conflict is adopting principles of liberty explicitly, and addressing errors of the past that are still relevant today (70 years since the founding of Israel, it's not like I'm talking about something that happened 5000 years ago). 

[Grames]

20 hours ago, AlexL said:

Can you cite your sources for that information? With specifics.

Numbers only, no lurid stories here https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_fatalities_by_age_group

[Grames]

9 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Grames seems to portray Hamas and Israel as morally equivalent, in which case "not caring" makes sense, but I don't have a reason to think that the actions of Israel are equally as premised on religion as Hamas. 

Interesting reading: American Pravda: Oddities of the Jewish Religion

[AlexL]

2 hours ago, Grames said:

Numbers only, no lurid stories here https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_fatalities_by_age_group

The subject was your lurid claim that settlers have done things similar to "beheaded babies, or about people fucking the corpses of young women".

Your link does not confirm that. 

Should I still wait for evidence for your lurid claim?

Edited November 4, 2023 by AlexL

[whYNOT]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:50 AM, Grames said:

Yes.  Israeli settlers have done similar things.  Religious wars are like that.  I reject both of the religions involved.  You should too.

"Religious wars" - not quite. Religion wasn't the primary element of early Israel, a safe sanctuary and self-determination was. It's a common mistake to reify the Jews into a single category. They are about as disparate as all individuals in all groups outside of Judaism. 

Judaism is "ethno-religious". Part ethnicity, part faith. One may choose to drop the convictions entirely and still identify "Jewish" in one's own eyes, or not, especially in others'.

When Jews came under social/legal/religious repression in the European early 20 C, some, who happened to be Socialists and irreligious, began to realize they all, collectively, needed a secure homeland; so some early settlements in part of that large Ottoman territory - known later as Palestine- bought from the Turkish owners - were encouraged, financed and farmed.

The Zionists' prescience of the increasing dangers to all Jews was completely vindicated in hindsight. A flood of Jewish refugees from post-War Europe and many Arab lands where they, the original Spanish Jews, had been barely tolerated under "dhimmi" status for 500 years found a place they could make their own.

Internationally - *legally* - granted/partitioned for Jews - before anyone forgets.

The attacking Arab countries in '48, onwards ~were~ motivated by religious fanaticism, and the "Zionists" or Israelis, now an ethno-religious-nationalist entity, responded in their common defence.

So not then -or presently - are they considered by Israelis as "religious" wars. This now is a proper nation, equal citizens of several 'groups' (including 2 million Muslim-Israelis) and individuals threatened by a terrorist group posing as 'a government' with the goal of eliminating them all.

Terrorists make no such fine distinctions. Leftist and secular Jews who usually sympathized with Palestinians are finding out to their horror that they are as loathed by their fellow Leftists, and Islamists, for " being Jewish" as the religious ones, and as likely to be picked upon and isolated in western nations or be murdered and abducted in Israel, as many were.

Edited November 4, 2023 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

5 hours ago, Grames said:

Interesting reading: American Pravda: Oddities of the Jewish Religion

A diatribe. "Oddities", mystical pamphlets and anecdotal 'evidence' from a few maniacs of the same type found on the edges in any religion, who most Jews (I am sure) would state do not represent "the Jewish religion".

Edited November 4, 2023 by whYNOT